I am just finishing up an 8X57IS classic Obendorf style rifle on a VZ500 Intermediate action.



The rifle balances & handles well @ 7 1/2# W/scope, but the 8X57IS cartridge is more suited to Eastern "woods" ranges of 250 yds or less.

I have another VZ500 action & would like to build a similar rifle in a classic cartridge for longer ranges. COAL must remain @ or under 3.150"

I think a 6.5X55 loaded to 60,000 psi W/120gr polymer tipped bullets would make an excellent long range (300+ yds)"mountain rifle". I see SAAMI pressure loaded 6.5X55 120gr load data in the 3000fps range.

Since the action (as well as the brass)should easily withstand SAAMI 270 Win pressures (60,000 PSI)I think perhaps another 150-200fps should be practical.

A high BC 120gr .264 bullet traveling in the 3200 fps range should be a flat shooter.

Then of course there would be the Ackley Improved version of the same cartridge to consider.

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I see SAAMI pressure loaded 6.5X55 120gr load data in the 3000fps range.

Since the action (as well as the brass)should easily withstand SAAMI 270 Win pressures (60,000 PSI)I think perhaps another 150-200fps should be practical.

My 6.5 X 55 is a VZ-24 and I also shoot 120s and using a shovelfull of H-4350 It's clocking 3,045 FPS.....this from a 21" barrel as well

I seriously doubt you will reach 3,200 FPS and maintain 60,000 PSI.....and disagree that it's practical.

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Originally posted by vapodog:

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I see SAAMI pressure loaded 6.5X55 120gr load data in the 3000fps range.

Since the action (as well as the brass)should easily withstand SAAMI 270 Win pressures (60,000 PSI)I think perhaps another 150-200fps should be practical.

My 6.5 X 55 is a VZ-24 and I also shoot 120s and using a shovelfull of H-4350 It's clocking 3,045 FPS.....this from a 21" barrel as well

I seriously doubt you will reach 3,200 FPS and maintain 60,000 PSI.....and disagree that it's practical.

Just a few hours ago, I found my "Quickload" software that has been missing for the last few years. I had a virus wipe out my computer a few years back & since I was not doing any new load developement, I got along W/O my "Quickload".

A quick 60000 PSI ceiling calculation does indeed confirm that 3200 is out of the realm of 60,000 PSI, but out of a 23 1/2" barrel, 3100 fps is in the 60,000 PSI area.

It looks like the 6.5X55 W/a 120gr polymer tipped boattail pill will shoot as flat as my .280 that clocks a 139gr Interbond @ 3150 fps.

In a rifle that weighs a full # less, that seems worthwhile to me..

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My 6.5 X 55 is a VZ-24 and I also shoot 120s and using a shovelfull of H-4350 It's clocking 3,045 FPS.....this from a 21" barrel as well

I forgot to note.....I have no clue what pressure my load is running except to say I suspect it's over 60,000 and safe for the brass et al I'm using!

51.0 grs Norma MRP, 120 Nosler BT, CCI BR2, accurate and reasonably fast, 3000 fps with 23" barrel, that is about all the powder that the swede will fit.

Since the 6,5x55 saw first light 1893 in Christiania (the name of the capital of Norway at the time) it has always got the job done without problems.

In the US the american ammo-manufacturers inventet the "6,5x55 Swedish", a reduced load version made for surplus swedish mausers after ww2.

In a standard 6,5x55 a 120 grs bullet loaded with 53 grs of Norma MRP or Reloder 22 will give 3000 fps in a 25" barrel. And who needs more?

The leading long range shooters in Norway use the 6,5x55 out to 1200m (1300 yards) on targets and certainly out past 300yards on game.

fun

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......but the 8X57IS cartridge is more suited to Eastern "woods" ranges of 250 yds or less.

Huh.....maybe with the sedate US factory loads. However, load it to CIP or at least to 60,000 psi or the same "+P" level and it is a very capable cartridge. Out of my 2 8x57IS M98 sporters with 23" milsurp barrels I load the 150 Hornady SP to 2850 fps, the 175 Sierra SP to 2700 fps and the Remington 185 SP to 2600 fps. Those are not hardly "sedate" and put the 8x57, ballistically, in the '06 catagory. I've also a 6.5 Swede I load to CIP equivelent pushing the 140 Hornady SP to 2750 fps. I find the 8x57, when loaded to CIP standards to be the more versatile cartridge for big game. However, most big game is shot on the short side of 200 yards (most actually under 100 yards) and either cartridge will do nicely.

Larry Gibson

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

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......but the 8X57IS cartridge is more suited to Eastern "woods" ranges of 250 yds or less.

Huh.....maybe with the sedate US factory loads. However, load it to CIP or at least to 60,000 psi or the same "+P" level and it is a very capable cartridge. Out of my 2 8x57IS M98 sporters with 23" milsurp barrels I load the 150 Hornady SP to 2850 fps, the 175 Sierra SP to 2700 fps and the Remington 185 SP to 2600 fps. Those are not hardly "sedate" and put the 8x57, ballistically, in the '06 catagory. I've also a 6.5 Swede I load to CIP equivelent pushing the 140 Hornady SP to 2750 fps. I find the 8x57, when loaded to CIP standards to be the more versatile cartridge for big game. However, most big game is shot on the short side of 200 yards (most actually under 100 yards) and either cartridge will do nicely.

Larry Gibson

Your 8X57IS loads are a bit behind what I'm getting.

180gr Nosler BTs @ 2830 fps.




200gr Nosler Partitions @ 2730 fps.





Since I was out of Vv N550 & the 175gr Sierra have an ogive that requires a COAL a full .100" shorter than either the 180gr BTs or 200gr Partitions when seated just off the lands, all I could squeeze from them when I backed them W/IMR 4064 of which I have several #s was the same 2700 fps Mv you attained.

The Vv "N" powders really do perform well, in many applications giving more MV @ a given pressure than most other powders.

Still a higher BC 120gr .264 bullet @ 3000+ fps will shoot a LOT flatter.

Wildcat

That's pretty impressive but mine isn't a wildcat and I'm keeping pressures at 60,000 psi(M43) which is 3,500 psi more than the CIP MAP. That's pretty +P for the standard 8x57IS case. All my loads are pretty much 100% loading density.

What is the cartridge and rifle?

Larry Gibson

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Wildcat

That's pretty impressive but mine isn't a wildcat and I'm keeping pressures at 60,000 psi(M43) which is 3,500 psi more than the CIP MAP. That's pretty +P for the standard 8x57IS case. All my loads are pretty much 100% loading density.


What is the cartridge and rifle?

Larry Gibson

Mines not a wildcat either. 8X57IS & those loads are right @ 60,000 psi according to Quickload data although I am using the MV ceiling & the load is actually 2 grains less than the Quickload prediction. Loads density is about 103% in un-fireformed cases formed from 30-06 GI brass.

The rifle is a VZ500 Intermediate length LR98 W/a K98K take-off barrel turned down & crowned @ 23 3/8"



Here's a LINK to a thread that describes the rifle in detail.

Wildcat

Either that Vv powder you've got is some really good stuff or your chrono is a lot faster than mine. I mean 2730 with a 200 gr bullet? 2830 from a 180 gr bullet and only 60,000 psi? That's right up there with the 325 WSM and it runs 64,000 psi with a larger case capcity!!!! I've got to try some of that in my 8x57IS? On second thought, probably not.......

Larry Gibson

P.S.; I note that Vitivouri lists 64 gr of 550 as a max load for the 200 gr bullet in the 338 Win Mag. You might want to recheck your loads........me thinks that 63.5 gr 550 under a 200 gr bullet just might be a bit much for the 8x57IS. I do appreciate your support of the 8x57IS but those loads might be a little more than "+P".

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Wildcat

Either that Vv powder you've got is some really good stuff or your chrono is a lot faster than mine. I mean 2730 with a 200 gr bullet? 2830 from a 180 gr bullet and only 60,000 psi? That's right up there with the 325 WSM and it runs 64,000 psi with a larger case capcity!!!! I've got to try some of that in my 8x57IS? On second thought, probably not.......

Larry Gibson

P.S.; I note that Vitivouri lists 64 gr of 550 as a max load for the 200 gr bullet in the 338 Win Mag. You might want to recheck your loads........me thinks that 63.5 gr 550 under a 200 gr bullet just might be a bit much for the 8x57IS. I do appreciate your support of the 8x57IS but those loads might be a little more than "+P".

Yes the Vv "5" series (N540, N550, N560, etc.) are "high energy" powders & I use compacted loads, dropping them through a 12" tube pouring the powder into the funnel so that it swirls going into the tube to settle the charge before bullet seating. The "5" series powders are dense per volume & one can use a slower burn rate W/a bit more powder by weight to get a little more "oomph" W/O going into crazy pressure.

I always do my "Quickload" predictions @ 90% to 107% load density & for most "standard" cartridges, I use a 60,000 psi ceiling to predict maximum Mv target.

Using said criteria, @ the same pressure, the 8X57 is only about 125 fps behind the 8mm-06 Ackley Improved (I had 1 of those) & even closer to the "standard" 8mm-06. The 8X57 case is, IMO, near perfect capacity for effecient use in the 8mm bore.

Those damned Germans must have known what they were doing eh?

I don't know where you get that I'm reaching "325 WSM" Mv.

I'm a good 230 fps behind the 325 WSM.

I'm right @ the Mv/Me of the RWS 8X57 Factory load W/a 298gr bullet @ 2740 fps.

To be honest, those Mv figures are from when I was doing initial load developement W/un-fireformed cases made from GI 30-06 brass.

@ the range, W/cases that had been fireformed, thus ironing out a few wrinkles in the shoulder area,& subsequently reloaded, Mv dropped about 25-30 fps. Perhaps the added case capacity?

In any case, adding .5 to 1 grain might bring things back up, but right now it's big game season, I'm out of Vv 550 as well as bullets & money. The 17 rounds laoded W/200gr Partitions I have left will be used to harvest a few Whitetails & perhaps a Black Bear if I'm lucky..

As I said, W/IMR 4064, I was only able to get around 2700 from 175gr Sierra Pro Hunters.

Also, W/the Nosler 180 BT & 200 Par I was able to load the bullet out a full .100" longer than W/the Sierras & still stay "off the lands" so bullet choice might have something to do W/it too.

In either case, the loads seemed well mannered & the circa 1960 comercial LR 98 VZ500 action (sililar to the M48 Yugo) has been Rockwell tested , is right on the money & is plenty strong enough to take the pressure as long as the brass hold up.

Oh, BTW, that 63.5gr should be 53.5gr of Vv N550. You are coorect in your observation.

Damn, now I have to edit the target, take more pix & repost.

wildcat junkie:

I always do my "Quickload" predictions @ 90% to 107% load density & for most "standard" cartridges, I use a 60,000 psi ceiling to predict maximum Mv target.

I use an Oehler M43 to measure the pressure. I have compared the data from the M43 measurements to QuickLoad results and find the data put into QuickLoad has to be pretty precise to be correct. A little off here and a little off there can make a very big difference.

Using said criteria, @ the same pressure, the 8X57 is only about 125 fps behind the 8mm-06 Ackley Improved (I had 1 of those) & even closer to the "standard" 8mm-06. The 8X57 case is, IMO, near perfect capacity for effecient use in the 8mm bore.

I certianly agree there. I had an 8mm '06 once and didn't find tit that much better.

Those damned Germans must have known what they were doing eh?

Mauser was a pretty smart guy. I'm sure God discusses the technicalities of proper firearm design with him and John M. Browning

I don't know where you get that I'm reaching "325 WSM" Mv.

Speer's reloading manual has several loads listed for the 200 gr bullet from 2739 (with N540) fps to 2837 fps.

I'm a good 230 fps behind the 325 WSM.

Your Target shows 2730 fps with the 200 gr bullet. That is "right up there" with the Speer loading data.

I'm right @ the Mv/Me of the RWS 8X57 Factory load W/a 298gr bullet @ 2740 fps.

Not sure where that 2740 fps comes from. The latest ballistic data RWS offers has 3 loads with 196 - 200 gr bullets at 2395 to 2624 fps. I wasn't aware of any 298 gr factory loads in the 8x57IS(?).

To be honest, those Mv figures are from when I was doing initial load developement W/un-fireformed cases made from GI 30-06 brass.

@ the range, W/cases that had been fireformed, thus ironing out a few wrinkles in the shoulder area,& subsequently reloaded, Mv dropped about 25-30 fps. Perhaps the added case capacity?

I use W-W 8x57 cases. Most of my loads are with FL sized cases (RCBS X-die which gives long case life with no trimming needed.

In any case, adding .5 to 1 grain might bring things back up, but right now it's big game season, I'm out of Vv 550 as well as bullets & money. The 17 rounds laoded W/200gr Partitions I have left will be used to harvest a few Whitetails & perhaps a Black Bear if I'm lucky..

Good luck hunting.

As I said, W/IMR 4064, I was only able to get around 2700 from 175gr Sierra Pro Hunters.

That is about right for 4064. I use H4895 and get 2750 fps right at 60,000 psi(M43).

Also, W/the Nosler 180 BT & 200 Par I was able to load the bullet out a full .100" longer than W/the Sierras & still stay "off the lands" so bullet choice might have something to do W/it too.

Some criticise the long throats in milsurp chambers but I find that a benifit as you have in being able to seat the bullets long and maximise case capacity. Lots of magazine room for it also.

In either case, the loads seemed well mannered & the circa 1960 comercial LR 98 VZ500 action (sililar to the M48 Yugo) has been Rockwell tested , is right on the money & is plenty strong enough to take the pressure as long as the brass hold up.

Oh, BTW, that 63.5gr should be 53.5gr of Vv N550. You are coorect in your observation.

That would be a lot more reasonable and probably a good load. Perhaps I'll have to break down and get some N550?

Damn, now I have to edit the target, take more pix & repost.

S**T happens

Larry Gibson

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:



I use an Oehler M43 to measure the pressure. I have compared the data from the M43 measurements to QuickLoad results and find the data put into QuickLoad has to be pretty precise to be correct. A little off here and a little off there can make a very big difference.

I've been using "Quickload" for about 10 years now. My version is on a "floppy" if that tells you how old it is.

I generally use actual H2O case volume in my data.

I always back off about 10% & work up using the Mv as a guide rather than the actual load volume.

Mv seems like it would be a reliable indication of pressure along W/other indicaters.

I have often found Quickload to be uncannily close, but have on 1 occassion found it to be substantially off W/some Norma powders, 203 or 204 I think. That was many years ago.Even W/my reduced "starting loads" I had severely flattened primers & hard bolt lift.

Funny thing about the Vv N550 laods compared to the IMR 4064 loads W/the 175gr Sierras.

(perceived) Recoil & muzzle blast was sharper W/the IMR 4064/175gr Sierra loads compared to the N 550 loads W/either of the heavier Nosler bullerts even though the Mv was lower W/a lighter bullet & the Me was substantially lower for the IMR/Sierra laods.

+P to me implies HIGH pressure.

I'd aim for 3k-3050 mv w/120 in 6.5x55 w/22-24" at Safe pressure in any modern action.

Now if you AI the case, and run say a 28-30", you may get 3,200.

150-200 fps is not going to change outcomes at most normal distances, if you place your shot.