I posted this on the reloading forum and Benchrest. Maybe somebody here has had a similar experience.

I am consistently shooting five shot groups into 3/4-1 inch. Generally it will be 3 shots into .4 and the other two will open the group to the 3/4. I am shooting a 17 Remington from a sporter weight barrel, however it isn't the first three that group together. I could be any of the three out of the five.

Could it be the bedding of the rifle or possibly a bullet seating problem? Any other possibilities?

If you're getting those groups from a stock rifle in that caliber I would consider yourself lucky and stick with it. My 17 Rem shoots the 20gr V-Max into .5-.75" at 100yds and I'm tickled. My groups with the 25gr HPs were around 3-4". It jsut did not like those bullets. If you are determined to get better accuracy, I would try some different powders and bullets first. The 17s are known for being finicky, so you may happen onto something it likes better. If you aren't using a premium bullet, give that a try.

Scrollcutter: I have a couple of Remingtons in caliber 17 Remington. One is a Remington 700 Classic with the factory sporter weight barrel 24" long. The other is a limited edition factory stock Remington 700 VSS. This Rifle is all stainless steel and has the heavy 26" barrel with the Varmint contour. They both shoot the 25 gr. Berger MEF's VERY well. No split groups or stringing. I have a 4X12 Leupold on the Classic and a 6.5X20 Leupold on the heavy barrel. In addition I have a custom 17 MachIV built on a Remington 700 action. This Rifle also shoots the Berger 25 gr. MEF's the best! These bullets perform wonderfully on Varmints in the field as well as on paper at the range. So may I suggest you try them and endure the somewhat higher costs. Hoping for an easy fix to your small problem. Like the other poster said those groups (even though split) are not that bad! How much scope power have you got on that Rifle?
Speaking of scopes I wonder if a scope switch or powering up in scope power temporarily will more clearly define if there is a scope problem.
Right off hand out of all the things that could be causing non round clusters of bullets in your groupings - I think I will suggest starting with scope and mounts rechecking, bedding review or overhaul, then varying the bullet seating distance off of the lands. Remember closer to the lands is not ALWAYS better! Please try (if you have not already) the wonderful Berger 25 gr. MEF's. I will add this though in all three of my 17 caliber centerfires, they all shot well with all bullets tested including Calhoon, Remington, Hornady and the Bergers! The Bergers just shot a tad better than the others in all three Rifles!
Another easy to check area of concern would be bullet/cartridge runout. If you do not have a bullet/cartridge runout gauge then ask around and take some of your handloads to someone that does have a gauge. If you have excessive runout then simply try new dies!
Good luck and let me know what power scope you are using so I can better compare your results with mine.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I still have some of the Remington, Hornady and Calhoon 17 caliber bullets still in the storage locker of my reloading room. If you want I could send you 10 of any you have not tried. Let me know!

[ 08-06-2003, 19:51: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

Scrollcutter, Read your other post first, Since you are handloading it is probably the bedding, try to rebed your action and free float your barrel at the same time. Good Luck

The groups you noted sound pretty respectable to me. I have a Remington 700BDL in .17Rem.
and it will indeed shoot - whenever it damn well feels like it! I find it quite common to get a .4"
group (5 at 100), followed or preceded by a 1.3" group. It's a finicky little beggar in the best of times. My best groups come with IMR4320 and the 20gr. VMAX. I shoot from a sturdy rest and usually in calm conditions. It doesn't matter. You can only expect so much from the rifle. At least that's the story I'm sticking with since I've decided not to use the rifle for a tomato stake. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

The rifle is a Sako L461 action with a 22" Douglas barrel. Stock is Brown Precision Kevlar. Scope is Leupold Vari-X 2 3x9. It is fully bedded with about 6 Lbs. of pressure on the barrel at the forend as I have found sporter weight barrels have shot better, for me, with some pressure. Barrel diameter at the muzzle is .5. However, the barrel has a rapid taper of .110 per foot. So it is fairly substantial even at the forend tip.

I am beginning to think that it may be the split groups are due to either bullet/cartridge runout or seating depth. The longest OAL I can attain is 2.285 due to action size. This doesn't leave much bullet in the case though. So I worry about runout, again. Even at 2.285 I am not into the rifling. It may be that my throat is too deep.

The last possibility is the scope. There isn't any paralax adjustment so the target is a bit fuzzy at 100 Yds. I will install a 16x target scope before my next outing.

Have often found vertical dispersion will disappear with powder charge adjustment (providing there is not a bedding problem or severe mirage that day) and horizontal group movement is caused by me not reading condition changes....
My semi-custom M700 17 Remington likes 30 grain Bergers over 4320 with 7 1/2 primers....seated .05 off the lands...
17 Remington factory brass can sometimes be problematic for me as its quality sometimes varies greatly in the same lot. Marking cases that are out of the group may identify the case as the problem in your 'split' group scenario......

Thanks to you all for your replies to my post.

I am curious, has anybody else experienced the same conditions that Cal discussed. This is not the first time I have heard that group sizes are temperamental.

I have been experimenting with different loads so all of my groups have been variable. As per usual.

It is pretty common with my factory rifles. It is even worse with three shot groups...... You can have a half incher, and the next one opens it up to 1.5"

From the groups you posted, I would think the split group thing is just random variation, which may well be outside of the rifle. Including (but not limited to) wind, differences in rifle hold, differences on bag placement, ammo temperatures, etc. Once you get close to that 3/4" number and below, EVERYTHING starts having an impact, seems like.

There is a reason benchresters use the aggregate of five groups of five shots each to make comparisons..... HTH, Dutch.

Scrollcutter,

I'm certainly no expert, but I would consider more power scope wise (20-24). Also, I've found that when shooting into less than .5" I need a fine duplex (Leupold) to get smaller consistent groups.

Mirage could be an issue. My groups hampered by my lack of talent doping mirage usually show up as "double groups", FWIW.

My experience with the .17 started thirty years ago. Bullets are much better now, and very small increments in powder weights can make a huge difference.

BTW, you have a very nice rifle. Looks well proportioned.

Regards,
JB

What are the group sizes? You know a .75" group can seem pretty large with the tiny size of those bullets. I think many people expect too much of this caliber. .75" is nothing to sneeze at. I'd be more concerned with consistency than group size. Those bullets are coming out at around 4000fps so that barrel heats up pretty rapidly. That may be the cause of your split groups. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Definitely get a bigger scope. I think that will solve your problem...