I know the performance, but is the hassle justified? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
I know the performance, but is the hassle justified?

It would be simpler just to get a 257 Roberts if you want more velocity. AI's give slightly more velocity, how much depends on case taper and shoulder angle. Usually it's as much of a mental thing as any other factor. Unless you just like forming cases.
.

Actually do not like spending more time than necessary at the bench, but more time at range and field!

Agree on Roberts, no +P performance needed, just thinking.....a future project perhaps.

Thanks.

What hassle?

No

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
No

+1

OOOOH YEAH!!!!!

Aloha, Mark

I like the AI version not so much because it gives appreciable gains in velocity but because of much less frequent case trimming. Once you fireform your brass, there is no more hassle than with any other cartridge.

From a 24" barrel, the .250 AI will appraoch 3200 fps with a 100 grain bullet. I am at work and don't have my data handy, but if I recall, my main load was right on the money with what Sierra's manual showed (using Re-15, that is).

Is there a bit of 'calibre creep' happening here ? If your going the AI route, why not just build a 25 Souper (308/25) and you can download or heat it up as required. I'm assuming you don't have a 250-3000 already ?

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
Is there a bit of 'calibre creep' happening here ? If your going the AI route, why not just build a 25 Souper (308/25) and you can download or heat it up as required. I'm assuming you don't have a 250-3000 already ?

Yuppers....I'd far rather have a .250 souper than an AI any day

I would rather have a 257 Roberts than a 250 AI.

Just my opinion.

ddj

I am a 25-06 fan, but the 250 is one of the few AIs that actually sees an appreciable increase in velocity. Lou
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I'll ask the question again that no one answered.

What hassle?

One big point of the AI's(of which I own none) is that they accept factory brass, if properly chambered. You simply fire your factory brass, have fun, and then reload with the AI dies. If you are hunting somewhere, run out of ammo, and need to shoot, the factory ammo is there. As mentioned, it probably eliminates some hassle by requiring less case maintenance.

quote:

What hassle?

custom chambering and custom dies for a start....

I only met Al Biesen once about 10 years ago. We were in his basement looking at rifles and guns when i came in and asked about a 257 Ackley Improved. Al's response was.....

IMPROVE WHAT?!?!?!

I have a 25 Souper and love it BUT! There is just something about my little 250 AI [Toy] that kinda makes it jump out of the locker about the last week of September and into the Suzuki LJ80. I guess it`s the light weight. Simply put--it`s exactly what P.O. said it was way back in the early 70s. The best of all his Ackleys!
Aloha, Mark

Sounds like the AI, forming cases would save time later trimming, so it may be a wash overall, and you get the gain in speed, and I have read much for years it is the best 'improved' case, so I am sold on it. As to 'caliber creep', well, I will always use and be happy with a 6mmBR which I expect will be my mainstay for 24 cal, and love my 260 and 6.5x55 so it's hard to justify a Souper or Roberts as they are nigh identical to the above, to the tune of .007 if my mind is working.

YET, I LIKE the mild mannerism the 250 seems to possess, get it done with very little fuss.

It seems I have preferred med. capacity rounds much more than mag sized ones during my life, just more fun to shoot for what I do, can do more of it in a day, and hit better, and my shoulder/ears thank me.

A smaller bore i.e. 24 it seems might have a tad more crack to it, maybe a 243 is slightly overbore??? Ha.

Just looking for a road less traveled I guess....I know they all work and I am not searching for any hotshot long range number for my shooting.

Think I may be happy with either 250, to the Roberts fans, I bet the round emulates a 260/6.5x55 when all are using 120s, that goes for the Souper too.

As to the AI Roberts, LONG ago met a shooter, loved his, VERY hot number, very close to a 25/06 if not more so in speed, but I don't know what pressure he ran, and he did have a 24 if not a 26" to help. I was impressed, it is a solid round as well.

I DO question feeding in the 250 AI as whatever bolt I have in hand, I want it to smoothly feed.

Thanks.

My deep throated 250-3000 bolt action Mod. 200 has been a real pleasure. Why fix it if it ain't broke? roger

I have three rifles chambered in 257 Roberts, and each one shoots well with the load it likes. The ballistics of the 250 AI are VERY close to the 257. And, I just had a 250 AI put together, and have that humming now with a couple of great loads.
Before I got off of it, and actually had a 250 AI built, I wouldn't own one. Now that I have one, I can't live without it... It works SOOO well in a short action, and it's the first rifle I have in 25 caliber that shoots the 75 grain bullets well. None of the other 25 caliber rifles I have will do that, and I have two standard 250 Savages too, along with the three 257's. The 87 grain Speer TNT bullets, and the 90 grain Sierra HPBT's shoot fantastic too in the 250AI. I haven't played with heavier bullets in any of the 25 caliber rifles I have, except for one 257 that I have a 100 grain bullet load worked up for Deer hunting. It shoots the 100 grain Nosler Partitions well.

Don

Edit to add: I can see in my crystal ball... A 25 Souper in my future..

DMB, what action and how does it feed? Thanks for the info. Also, what powder? 4895...4320?

Guess it depends on what you want to use it for, and how. For an absolutely no hassle .25 which will do for almost anything one might ordinarily hunt in the south 48, buy either a .257 or a .25-06 and use factory ammo.

If you want to use 130 grain or heavier .25 bullets (if/when you can find any) buy and handload a .25-06 of SAAMI standard form. For 100-grain or lighter deer hunting loads, a vanilla .250 Savage was killing them (again with factory ammo) by the truckload before 99% of us were born.

If you want anything hotter, milder, more esoteric, or just plain one-of-a-kind you're gonna have at least some more hassle. Pick what you want, and accept the hassle. Usually in that kind of loading, the word "hassle" is spelled in its short form anyway....
F. U. N.

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Edit to add: I can see in my crystal ball... A 25 Souper in my future..

Just when we think we have found something we discover another round that is exactly the same except for only .007 larger bullet diameter......and it's standard factory stuff....no special reamers....no special dies....no fireforming....

Yup.....the .260 Remington is a better idea!

quote:

Yup.....the .260 Remington is a better idea!

We in deep pucky now. roger

The 25 wssm is the answer.

Albert, I guess if one could turn Twiggy into a Cindy Crawford w/sexy hips and curves etc it might be worth the 'hassle factor' right! I am concluding the AI would not be much trouble, albeit not quite as simple as the 6mmBR, load and go, and shoot itty bitty groups.....

anyways, Buliwyf, now if the 6.5 had been factory formed in WSSM, THEN I'd be a HAPPY camper! Heard of trouble using the WSSM cases, thickness etc and I am not into neck turn, etc.

The Wssm were neat, the 25 likely the best in factory release form, no doubt. Not much to improve......well, save some bbl life.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

What hassle?

custom chambering and custom dies for a start....

Both of my AI chamberings cost not a dime more for the gunsmith to chamber...I mean he either picked the standard chambering reamer from the shelf or the AI reamer...what's the big deal?

Both die sets were regular Redding catalog items.

And like Art S. mentioned, all AI chambers still chamber and shoot the parent cartridge.

Some of you folks are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:Yup.....the .260 Remington is a better idea!

Stop it!!! I refuse to look in my crystal ball.. Today, Maybe tomorrow..

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
DMB, what action and how does it feed? Thanks for the info. Also, what powder? 4895...4320?

6.5BR,

My 250AI is nothing more than a new Rem 700 CDL that started life as a 7-08. I had the 7-08 barrel removed and a new Shilen 23" barrel installed chambered for the 250AI. Feeding is a non issue.
There are so may loads that are shooting well in the rifle, I can literally choose from a number of them for any given hunt.
Loads that work are:

75 grain Hornady "V" Max, 41.5 grains of RL-15

90 grain Sierra HPBT, 37 grains of Varget
(Same load with Speer 87 grain TNT shoots well too)

87 grain Speer SP, 37.6 grains Win 748
(Same load with Sierra's 90 HPBT shoots well too)

IMR 4895 works well too, but I haven't had the opportunity to fine tune loads with it. The above groups are all 1/2" for three shots at 100 yards using a 20x scope, so I'm not in a rush to find other loads that shoot well. I also have not worked with the heavy 25 caliber bullets, so I don't have any data on them.

I tested lots of different powders and bullets with groups ranging from terrible to those above. I wasn't able to get any good results with 4320. IMR 4895 showed very good promise however.

I'm trying to get out of here for a two week Coyote Hunt in the UP before our Deer season starts, and that's why the concentration on the light weight bullets now. I have a regular 257 Roberts, a Ruger 77 Mk II, that shoots 100 grain Nosler Partitions well, so I don't need a heavy weight 25 bullet for the 250AI right now.

In summary, I must say that Varget is providing some magnificent accuracy for several different small caliber rifles I'm loading for. And, I think the 250AI is a dream chambering. IIRC, six of 10 different loadings shot three shot groups measuring 1/2" at 100 yards with the 20x scope, and all of them had two bullets drop in the same hole. I've never had a sporter rifle shoot this well.

Don

Thanks for the load info, that's a keeper in my book. Anything approaching or under 1/2MOA is better than I can always hold....esp. in field.

Good hunting!

To add to the mix, I just had a .250AI built on an FN commercial action, Montana Rifle Co barrel, i'm finishing the stock right now(real nice termite food) and haven't shot it yet. I also have 5 other AI's and love them all. And contrary to popular belief, fireforming does NOT need to be done as a separate operation.
I fireform on game instead of paper, what a waste of components. In case you're interested here is a listing of my AI's. 2ea. 257AI's, 2ea. 22/250AI's(3,998), a 243AI and last but not least, the above mentioned 250AI.
The 250AI is the cartridge that Sierra uses for accuracy testing in the 25 bore, good enough for me. 41.9gr. of RL 15 is shown as their accuracy load with the 90gr. HPBT, Win. case, Rem 9 1/2. Velocity is listed at 3,400.
Reference: Sierra 6th edition.
I'll say it again, What hassle?

Stepchild

Great, thanks for info.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

What hassle?

custom chambering and custom dies for a start....

Both of my AI chamberings cost not a dime more for the gunsmith to chamber...I mean he either picked the standard chambering reamer from the shelf or the AI reamer...what's the big deal?

Both die sets were regular Redding catalog items.

And like Art S. mentioned, all AI chambers still chamber and shoot the parent cartridge.

Some of you folks are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Gotta agree here. My gunsmith buddy says the 257 Rob AI is the most popular AI, and its quite standard for any gunsmith to have, and almost all die makers have them without any special orders. Might cost a bit more, but not as much as more obscure AI's or popular wildcats. In fact the smith is building one for himself cause he was so impressed with another shooter's rifle.

The great father of wildcatting P.O. Ackley stated plainly in his books that the only calibers that he felt justified his Ackley Improving were the 250-3000, the 257 Robts and the 7x57 as the gained 300 FPS and he felt that was a substantial amount of velocity...I have to agree with that.

But IMO the beauty of the 250-3000 is in its lack of recoil and muzzle blast..It is a mild mannered little caliber that kills out of porportion to its size...I wouldn't change a thing with it....

I'm curious if anyone has had a 250/3000 or 257 and then had it AI'd. Curious as to the increased recoil and muzzle blast Ray mentioned. I'm sure its still a pussy cat round, but just for grins and giggles...I'm interested! Increase the powder - increase the physical reactions

Ray your points are just what I admire about the round. Likely not ALOT of difference in characteristics AI vs std, but AI would stand to reason to be a tad 'less mild' if you will but I'd say less than a 260 but perhaps not much different than a similar length 243 is my guess.....any pleasant to shoot at bench for many rounds w/o ill effects if proper ear protection used as should be for any rounds.

Long ago, went shooting with a fellow, his 257 AI was a hot number, but just not what I am looking for right now, but likely a great antelope/deer/coyote round for longer distances as is the 25/06.

I'd suspect to Rays point, a moderate speed standard 250 allows cup/core bullets 100-117 (in proper twist) to 'behave' in a controlled fashion allowing well steered projectiles to find their vitals on game in a consistent manner w/o much worry of bullet failure that sometimes accompanies rounds of much higher speeds.

Thanks.