Gents

I have been reloading Norma brass in a 243 and have noticed that there is a small bump inside the case neck just down by the shoulder. In other words you cannot slide a bullet all the way into the case because it is stopped by the bump. The loads I have used are warmish and the brass has been fired about 8 times. Is there any reason for this and if yes, what, and does it effect accuracy etc?
Thanks alot.

Tom

As usual I don't quite understand the problem.
Is there any corresponding "dent" on the outside of the neck.

Are you trimmed down to the right length?
Does the expander button smooth it out on reloading?
Are you crimping too hard?
Are you forcing a bullet in a neck not shampered?
IE A compressed/collapsed neck isn't uncommon if too much force is put on it thou it usually
collapses into the shoulder.

It sounds like a case of "the dreaded doughnut".

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
It sounds like a case of "the dreaded doughnut".

It's an omen that is telling you not to push the bullet any farther into the case but get your barrel throated deeper and your magazine extended and stop buying short action rifles for cartridges with short necks. roger

Eddie
Whats the dreaded donot?

THIS http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/15MOA_Taper.html SHOULD SHED SOME LIGHT ON DONUTS

It's called a fire ring and if you don't have an inside neck reamer then it's time for new brass. Sorry, fire ring donut.

I had a Bulge in my neck one time !.

Dam Dove hunters !. I looked all around to see if Cheney was hunting near by !.



What's life without Humor ? , WORK ! and nobody cares for that !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

It's called a fire ring and if you don't have an inside neck reamer then it's time for new brass. Sorry, fire ring donut.

I experience the same thing with my 6mm Rem. Since I use a Wilson case trimmer, all I had to do was buy the inside neck reamer to go with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommo:
I have been reloading Norma brass in a 243 and have noticed that there is a small bump inside the case neck just down by the shoulder. In other words you cannot slide a bullet all the way into the case because it is stopped by the bump.

Hey Tommo, At what point in the Reloading sequence are you trying this?

quote:

The loads I have used are warmish and the brass has been fired about 8 times. Is there any reason for this and if yes, what, and does it effect accuracy etc?

It is happening because there is Case Material moving around due to the Pressure. It can indeed be an indication of a problem in some situations. But, it might be something that can be corrected by altering the way you have your Dies set up.

Do you Full Length Resize(FLR), Partial-FLR(P-FLR), or Neck Size(NS)? What kind of Dies are you using?

The reason for the questions is because I've used a 243Win in a good number of rifles over a lot of years and just never noticed the Doughnut. It might have been there(probably was), but the way I Reload it has never created a problem and I've never had to "Cut it out".
-----

Do any of you folks who cut the Doughnut out P-FLR?

It seems to me that the doughnuts I have had in my cases have occured right at the base of the seated bullet. I could be wrong on that, but I think that is where mine have occured. What it did to me was qradually increase my ocl. I only experienced it on brass I have reloaded many times while target shooting. When I hand seated a bullet, I could feel the base of the bullet sit down on the doughnut. Time to throw that brass away. I don't fool with cutting the doughnut anymore. I have back in the days when good PPC brass was hard to get.

Try reloading 35Rem with brass sized with lee dies.

Loading the Speer 180 seated to the cannelure will result in a "donut" every time.

And that donut is... (drum roll please) meaningless.

all the hyperbole about it is... hyperbole.

Or for the less articulate:

It LOOKS bad but that little "ring" disappears (pressure forming) before the bullet moves.

AD

For me do-nuts have only shown up in cases shot in guns chambered with a tight neck. Perhaps because on my guns like this I turn necks so that there is .003" clearance around the case necks. After firing the inside of the case neck takes on that clearance and is .003" above caliber.

If you fire factory guns or cases with thin necks then you will have much more than .003" and you may have a do-nuts but the bullet slips by it anyway because of the extra clearance inside the neck after firing.

For instance if you had a 7 mag that has a neck chambered to .318" (easily measured as the OD of the fired/unsized case neck) and your brass thickness was .013" then you would have a clearance of .008" (.318"-.284"=.034"/2=.017"-.013"=.004"x2=.008"). The do-nut might be there but it is out of the way and will not stop the bullet because of the extra clearance in the neck.

Now once you size the case you can not push the bullet down the neck anyway to check for it. So, IMO there are a lot more "dreaded do-nuts" out there and reloaders just don't realize it.

But that brings up the question of what happens to the do-nut once the neck is sized. Does it go away since the neck brass may be being pushed down to an inside diameter that is smaller than the do-nut? Does it maintain the same amount of interior diameter difference than the neck?

Sounds like a basis for a whole new set of "thingy's" to measure and correct for it! Call them the DREADED DO-NUT THINGY!

I've thrown a lot of brass away because of those dam thing's!

Norma brass is inside neck reamed as a final part of the case forming . Section an unfired case to see this.

So when your case grew longer this part of the shoulder brass slightly moved into the neck and formed a tight spot.
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/6XC_DonutCutter.html

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...Sounds like a basis for a whole new set of "thingy's" to measure and correct for it! Call them the DREADED DO-NUT THINGY!

Hey Woods, Perhaps you could buy regular old Pin Gauge Sets and have the Label changed to read - DREADED DO-NUT MEASURING DEVICE THINGYS , triple the $$$cost$$$, sucker folks into buying them, then sell the whole fiasco to Hornady.

Huuum, Wonder where Tommo went?

OK thanks for the replies. So I take it that really the brass is now scrap?
I am using a 243 win sako finnlight with reasonably warm loads. 85 gn partition x 46 grains AR2209 (Win 760 equiv I think?) and 100 grain sierra prohunter x 44 grains AR2209. Both loads are normally very accurate but this seems to have deteriorated (due to the doughnut in the case I guess).
Dies used are RCBS set to partial size each case. Redding case wax etc. Cases are not trimmed as a reputable gunsmith measured the neck length in the chamber and said the brass would fail before the case needed trimming. He said that this was common in Sako rifles.
Note that new brass once fired in my rifle and unsized allows a bullet to slide all the way into the neck without encountering a bulge near the neck / shoulder.
All the old brass now has a doughnut. Throw the lot away and start again?

Cheers gents

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Tommo:
So I take it that really the brass is now scrap?

NOPE!

Depending whether you own a trimmer, there may be a simple solution available to you. If you have a Forster or Wilson trimmer, you can buy the correct reamer from whichever. Removing the donut is simplicity.

Running the brass over an expander will externalize the donut, and then outside turning will remove it. This is a more tedious process, and discarding the brass may be more desirable unless you have an investment in it.

If you have access to a machine tool supplier, obtain a 0.246" reamer (same diameter as a standard Forster or Wilson). Running it into the fired brass before sizing will remove the donut (if neck I.D. is not excessive due to an oversize chamber or thin brass), but you may have to experiment with the process to get a satisfactory result. Checking the neck I.D. (not of the donut) of a fired case first will tell the story as to what size reamer may be needed if an out-of-standard condition exists.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommo:
...So I take it that really the brass is now scrap?

Hey Tommo, It would not be scrap for me, since you are P-FLRing with RCBS Dies, which is exactly what I do. I've not concerned myself about Case Doughnuts and just make sure an empty P-FLRed Case fits snug in the Chamber.

quote:

I am using a 243 win sako finnlight with reasonably warm loads. 85 gn partition x 46 grains AR2209 (Win 760 equiv I think?) and 100 grain sierra prohunter x 44 grains AR2209.{/quote]Without having your specific Loads and firearm in my hands, I can't comment on hot "Hot" the Loads are.

[quote]Both loads are normally very accurate but this seems to have deteriorated (due to the doughnut in the case I guess).

Perhaps it is a problem for you, but the last time I shot my 243Win the Cases were on the 12th P-FLRed Reload and it shot better than I normally can shoot - in the 3s. And it was not a fluke group "that day". But, I would not want to wager that I could duplicate it on a consistent basis.

quote:

Dies used are RCBS set to partial size each case. Redding case wax etc. Cases are not trimmed as a reputable gunsmith measured the neck length in the chamber and said the brass would fail before the case needed trimming. He said that this was common in Sako rifles.

He might be correct, but I Trim mine using the nifty Lee Case Length/Trimmer Gauge after each Firing simply to maintain as much consistency as possible.

quote:

Note that new brass once fired in my rifle and unsized allows a bullet to slide all the way into the neck without encountering a bulge near the neck / shoulder.
All the old brass now has a doughnut. Throw the lot away and start again?

I would recommend getting a new set of Cases and see if they shoot better than the ones with the Doughnuts. If they do, then it supports your theory, if they don't shoot better, then the Doughnut has nothing to do with your accuracy degrading.

I'll "guess" the Doughnut is not the problem since you P-FLR.

you guys sure the case isn't being pushed all the way back in the shell holder before seating the bullet..

I manage to screw that up frequently and end up with a bulge on one side of the neck, because the case wasn't 100% upright when the bullet entered the seating die..

OK. I'll try reloading some fresh brass first. I have some once fired federal so I'll give that a go and let you know how it goes. Thanks for the advice on this. I appreciate everones answers. Tom

You need an inside neck reamer, it happens from time to time with any caliber...

If you were seating the bullet and creating a bulge then that would be on the outside and hard to see but visible upon close inspection, and you will have seating problems.

Gents, gave the barrel a good scrub and also used some abrasive paste. Loaded up some 100 gn sierra prohunters with 43 gn AR2209 behind them. Only had a 50 m range handy but all bullets touching! I am guessing the "doughnuts" caused erratic tension on the bullet and maybe severe runout? Cheers for the advice.
Tom

normally it happens after you have turned the case necks as some turners wont go right to the shoulder, they even suggest thinning the shoulder a little because its much thicker brass than the necks. and most only turn necks because they have a tight chamber and in 99% of those cases the bullet isnt seated that far back into the neck.