I may one day be interested in reaming my .308win to an improved version.

If you'll just look past my ignorance on the subject of reaming and wildcatting; does the improved version, which I assume to be named an Ackley improved retain the capability of shooting standard .308brass? I personally can't see why not but it's rather important for legal reasons to me.

Secondly, are there dies already avaliable in this chambering?

And most importanly, just how sensible a job is the actual (re)-chambering? The rifle in question is a HS precision which came with a 0.1856MOA test target, so I wouldn't go ahead if it could jepordize the rifle's accuracy.

Express,

You must be one of those guys who runs straight 30W in your car even when the manual says to use 5W-30! Just teasing.

There is not much of an increase in case capacity when the round is already of a large bore diameter. A 243 Win AI would have more of an increase in capacity if that's what your after. There has to be some shoulder left to blow out.

Yes, if it's done right, you can shoot factory loads.

"If it ain't broke then don't fix it."

Savage, I'm more like the type whos' mind just won't stop going, turning and churning ideas over until I find one I really like. Maybe having discarded several hundred along the way.
Then I'll stubbornly defend it even if faced with logical and reasonable arguments against it.

You wouldn't really gain enough performance difference to notice.

I have no first hand experience with any AI cartridges but to me it seems that the only rounds that really benefit from that treatment are the older rounds that in factory form are held to lower pressures anyway like the .250 Sav, 30-30 Win, 7x57, and even the good old 30-06. Oh, and we can't forget the .280 Rem which I would think is still held to lower pressures than the 270 Win due to the original autoloaders so chambered.

Like I said these are just the conclusions I have drawn from forums like this one and others. Sean

30-06...
300 wsm

jeffe

I agree with what has been said.
- Yes, if done correctly you can safely fire 308Win in the 308AI chamber.
- No, you will not see much gain in the 308AI, maybe 150fps but I doubt it.

Most improtantly, Why would you let anyone touch a rifle that is shooting that well?

If you must have a AI get a differnt rifle to AI or at least a different barrel and make the current rifle a switch barrel, 308Win and ???AI.

In case your are interested in the 243AI here is the address of my web page with info on the 243AI and some other AI's and wildcats.
http://www.angelfire.com/nd/243ackleyimproved

Good Hunting
Jeff in ND

300 RSUM is very nice

re reamen a chamber in AI contrain to set back the barrel to get the - 0.004 headspac eto AVOID case failure

another way to get more fuel room is th every good 30.284 WIN , no other change on bolt face , 06 water capacity , available case , avalaibale dies

good shooting

DAN TEC

Improving the 308 gains about 2% more capacity, you can get that just by loading the bullet out a little further to the lands.
As for accuracy, as long as it is chambered well and set into the action correctly, your accuracy shouldn't diminish.

Savage99,
Since the .308 is the parent case of the .243 how does the neck diameter influence case capacity? Assuming the same case volume for both and the same externally other than the neck size, how would one be larger or smaller than the other, capacity wise? .065"x.241" difference in neck diameter isn't going to amount to much, is it?

Lone Eagle,
I presently own three rifles chambered for Ackley Improved cartridges and a fourth one under construction and so far all of mine are very improved.
I have a 22/250 Ackley Improved that zeroed 1" high at 100yds. hits point of aim at 450yds. now if that's not IMPROVED i'll eat my hat.
Most of the people on this board are reloaders and thus not concerned with the anemic offerings put out by the factories.
Stepchild

Stepchild2,

Please read my post again. I think it explains why a smaller shoulder (308 Win) will have less of an increase in capacity than a larger shoulder like the 243 Win.

As to the 22-250 Ackley 40 degree. The 220 Swift is quite similar and it came out in 1934. Also you could mount your scope higher. Then your bullets will seem to shoot even flatter!

Savage99,
In the real world it doesn't amount to more than 3 specks of fly shit.Whats the difference,maybe 1 gr. if you filled it clean to the top of the mouth.
My scope is sitting in medium Leupold rings, I can't get it too much closer to the barrel and still get the bolt open. Besides that, if the scope is zeroed 1" high at 100yds.and fired at 450 there is nothing moving except the bullet.
It doesn't seem to shoot flat it is flat, extremely flat!
Any time an Ackley cartridge is mentioned you have something negative to say about it, without any hands on experience.
Stepchild

Express,
I just chambered a barrel for .308 Ackley a couple of days ago. I don't have it in wood yet so I can't tell you how it performs but to answer your first question, yes you can fire standard 308 win. in the improved chamber and in fact thats all you do to fireform brass. As far as dies go I'm not sure about availability of 308 Improved but I don't see why you couldn't neck size with standard dies. If you use 7/8 X 14 dies I'm pretty sure Redding makes them. If you use hand dies I know Wilson does. And for your 3rd question, if I had a rifle that would agg. .1856 no force on earth could make me introduce a reamer into the chamber until it was shot out. Going to an Improved chamber would have no effect on accuracy "IF" it is done properly. For a rifle that shoots that well it's a damned big "IF" and I would not do it. And now for the question that you didn't ask. Yes Savage 99 is as anti-Ackley as a person can get as evidenced by his remarks to Stepchild 2 "the 220 Swift came out in 1934"
(of what relevance is that) and "You could raise your scope higher then your bullets would seem to shoot even flatter" You don't need to exaggerate how flat a 22/250 Ackley Improved shoots. All you need to do is imagine a laser beam. The Swift is a great performer also but it is worth it to me to go Ackley on any cartridge just for the longevity of my brass. I shoot 5 Ackley Improved cartridges now and plan to add more as my budget allows for more reamers. Jim

Express I would not change your 308 in any way if it shoots that well leave it alone and find something else to play with. The AI are fun and I have two a 257 & 7X57 which are variations of the same thing. If your looking for a little more performance from a 308 or similiar calibre I'd look to the 300WSM.

Stepchild2,

This is what I mean by raising your scope to make your 22-250 seem to shoot flatter. Lets take a load like a 50 gr bullet at 4000 fps with a Ci of .248 for an example. With your sighting now 1" high at 100 yds it would hit 18.6" low at 450 yds if your scope is 1.5" above the bore line. Now if you raise your scope just an inch to 2.5" the same load will hit only 14.7" low at 450 yds using the same 1" high zero at 100 yds.

See now if you had asked me I could have helped you straighten that "laser beam"

I used the PointBlank program to calculate the above.

Mr. White,

The Swift is the standard way to get maximum velocity from medium length .224" bullets.

First let me state,I have no horse in this race,so I have nothing to gain or lose,however I may answer your questions.

Properly done an improved cartridge is just that,it is not a wildcat.Factory ammo will safely fire in an improved chamber which is correctly rechambered.

AS far as legal issues are concerned,an attorney would be the one to consult.Legal issues are viewed differently in varied countries.

Reamers and dies are readily availible,they are more expensive than standards.

An improved chamber may actually lower the resale value of your rifle.

I believe 150 fps gain with most bullets might be over optimistic.

Ackley was not overly impressed with the .308AI,from what I have read about the situation.

You certainly run the risk of reduced accuracy
by rechambering,it would depend a lot on the guality of the tooling and the expertise of the one doing the work.

Due to the cost of this project balanced against the possible gains,I don't belive I'd risk a rifle that shoots under 1/5 of a minule of angle.


WC

Savage99,
I don't give a damn about your program, but I know what this rifle does in the real world. I've owned flat shooting rifles for a lot of years, but none are close to this one. And I frankly don't care if you believe it or not!
Stepchild

Stepchild,

I don't believe you, period. I would like to know what bullet you are using and what your muzzle velocity is. A 55 gr Ballistic Tip @ 4499 fps to be zeroed at 450 yards would be +3.47" @ 100, +5.18" @ 150, and +6.73" @ 250 yds.

Now we can look @ a Nosler 68 gr SBHP. At 4499 muzzle velocity you are +3.37" @ 100, + 6.12" @ 200, and + 6.54" @ 250 yards.

So I call bullshit on this. If you are telling the truth make sure you remember not to higher a lawyer when your gun blows up. Sean

All cartridges can be "improved"! However, not all improved cartridges show much real improvement when "improved"!! The .308 Win. is one of these. It works just as well in the original version. Now, on the other hand, an "improved" .30/40 Krag, built on a strong action like a P14 Enfield or a Ruger No. 1, can rival the .300 H&H!! Unless you are prohibited from having a military caliber rifle by Italian law, leave it alone!! (A round which is just "improved", like the Ackleys, will still fire factory ammo, since the headspace is supposed to remain the same.) The only thing that changes is the shoulder diameter and the shoulder angle. Headspace is measured from the face of the locked bolt to the center of the shoulder, and this dimension is SUPPOSED to be left the same. However, there are some wildcats, like the Gibbs line, which feature a blown-forward shoulder as well as minimum taper. These have changed headspace and shortened necks. These designs require some means to keep the cartridge head against the boltface for the fireforming shot.

But, the .308 alrady has a very short neck, so shortening the neck further by blowing the shoulder forward is not a good idea with this case!

[ 12-02-2003, 18:36: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Stepchild 2 said:

quote:

---

Lone Eagle,
I presently own three rifles chambered for Ackley Improved cartridges and a fourth one under construction and so far all of mine are very improved.
I have a 22/250 Ackley Improved that zeroed 1" high at 100yds. hits point of aim at 450yds. now if that's not IMPROVED i'll eat my hat.
Most of the people on this board are reloaders and thus not concerned with the anemic offerings put out by the factories. Stepchild

---

Could you give us the type/weight of the bullet and the MV of this load? Really curious, would like to try to see if I could develop a load in my 6mm/284 that would be this good, or close to it! Also, how high is it @ 200, 300, 400, etc.?? Thanks!

[ 12-02-2003, 18:46: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Stepchild, I am still waiting to hear about your load for the 22-250 AI that goes 1" high @ 100 and zeroed @ 450 yds. I am really would like to read the details of this load. Sean

Well Loneeagle
Wait no longer. I personally don't care if you believe it or not. I had trouble believing it myself. I shot over several deer and shot a few in the spine before I realized just how flat this thing shoots. The performance of this rifle has been witnessed by several other people and they too were impressed. The actual yardage was 425 not that it makes much of a difference. I don't know how fast it is for sure, my chronograph disappeared during a recent divorce. I haven't shot this rifle at intermediate yardage. I know the barrel isn't going to last too long at this pace, but it sure is fun to play with and when I burn the throat out of it i'll have another barrel put on it, just like this one.
In one of your earlier posts you mention not having any actual experience with Ackley Improved cartridges yet you freely give advice(poor advice at that) to others,why?
You should have one built for yourself and you could see firsthand what it's like instead of through the grapevine.
This rifle is a blast, pun intended.
Stepchild

Eldeguello,
I know this sounds like a truck driver story, but it ain't. The load is a FULL case of IMR 4895, 55gr. Sierra spitzer, Remington cases, CCI BR2.
Anyone who would like to drop by and shoot this rifle is welcome to do so.
Stepchild

Kinda what I figured. Sean

[ 12-08-2003, 20:56: Message edited by: LoneEagle ]