As usual the CastJACKETED (castboolits boys) get things screwed up. The 6.5 Grendel is an evolution of the 6.5 PPC first created by Dr. Lou Palmisano along the lines of the 22 PPC and the 6mm PPC. Competition shooter Arne Brennan of Houston, Texas started shooting it in the AR 15. Arne was doing his thing and Bill Alexander was doing his. Bill Alexander of Alexander Arms had come along with the 50 Beowulf cartridge and he was having his barrels made by the Lothar Walther company. Arne Brennan had friends at the Lothar Walther plant and that friend suggested he talk to Bill Alexander. The hit it off and become good friends. Bill told Arne about his development with a 6.5 cartridge and they put their heads together. Along with engineering help from Lothar Walther the first design for the 6.5 Grendel appeared. Lapua was contacted for providing brass. Lapua requested they send their chamber and cartridge specifications to them. Lapua decided to make the case, but made some tweaks to it, basically just moving the shoulder forward and blowing the case out a little more. The original chamber has a compound throat and normally a .300 neck, but there were a few .295 necks. Arne was the owner of the company and website by the name of Competition Shooting Sports (CSS) and was already selling 6.5 CSS barrel kits (this is the Lothar Walther version of the 6.5 Grendel). The 6.5 CSS was identical to the 6.5 Grendel except it uses a 7.62x39 bolt where Bill Alexander changed his bolt to a deeper recess. The bolts are not interchangeable for he fact that the head space will be incorrect. A little on the bolts. The first 6.5 Grendel bolts were indeed 5.56 bolts. Later on Bill Alexander didn't want that known the bolts were 5.56 bolts, which were identifiable by the recess groove that was cut in the circumference of the bolt face. Bill had this groove machined out which took .011 of an inch. This then changed the head space in relation to where the chamber was positioned in the barrel. Bill also claimed that he done this to give the bolt lugs more flex. This has always been a big argument between the fans of the 6.5 CSS (which used the 7.62x39 bolts) and the 6.5 Grendel fans. There were many bolt breakages as in reality the 6.5 Grendel is too much cartridge for the AR 15 bolt. This has been remedied somewhat by new improved bolts made of a tougher 9310 steel alloy. Lothar Walther can supply either bolt with their barrel kits, that is the 7.62x39 bolt or the new enhanced 9310 steel bolt patterned after the Alexander Arms recessed bolt face. With the recessed bolt you essentially have a 6.5 Grendel, but because of the crazy licensing that Alexander Arms has, Lother Walther has to label them 6.5 CSS.

Arne Brennan and Bill Alexander had a big falling out and Arne quits the whole business and Lothar Walther takes over the Competition Shooting Sports company and still continues to sell the 6.5 CSS barrel kits and other items.

Along come Les Baer and he starts producing his AR 15's in 6.5 Grendel. Because of Bill Alexander's well documented poor business practices, Les and Alexander Arms have a falling out and Les drops the licensing. He then changes the chamber specifications, which basically boils down to getting rid of the compound throat (which has been producing problems all along although it shot well)and renamed his product the .264 LBC. So it's not true that the .264 LBC is just the 6.5 Grendel with a different name. The chamber is different. Close yes, but no cigar.

Another fly in the ointment has only recently appeared. Hornady Company began producing both 6.5 Grendel and .264 LBC ammunition and brass. A problem has arisen where the Hornady ammo isn't fitting the 6.5 CSS chambers and some other 6.5 Grendel clones....and to a degree a very few .264 LBC rifles. Hornady still hasn't made a decision as what to do about this yet.

Arne Brennan and the head of the Lothar Walther plant are personal friends of mine and Les Baer in an informal acquaintance.

Right now Alexander Arms has many different barrel manufacturers, their premium barrel being manufactured by Satern Barrel by Steve Satern in Iowa. Other barrels are produced by Saber Arms, E.R. Shaw, and Shilen although it's up in the air as to whether Shilen is really making any. The Satern barrel has a very very long waiting period to receive. It is a superb barrel with 5R cut rifling. The 6.5 CSS barrel also has no flys on it as well as Les Baer barrels.

The one thing some of the cast boys got right is that the whole thing is a stinking mess because of Bill Alexander's licensing policy and his shady business practices. Another thing to make matters worse is it appears that it's luck of the draw as to whether the reloading dies you purchase with size the fired cases down enough to chamber. Many have resorted to shaving the shell holders to get the case deeper in the sizer die. The two best dies for this cartridge in my opinion are the Redding and Forester. The bushing dies are the only way to go because this cartridge responds well to the correct neck tension. Brass is expensive and sometimes very hard to get. It's reported that Lapua may drop the round and may be the reason Hornady is in the game. This is only speculation at the moment. All in all the 6.5 Grendel is an excellent cartridge.

quote:

Along come Les Baer and he starts producing his AR 15's in 6.5 Grendel. Because of Bill Alexander's well documented poor business practices, Les and Alexander Arms have a falling out and Les drops the licensing. He then changes the chamber specifications, which basically boils down to getting rid of the compound throat (which has been producing problems all along although it shot well)and renamed his product the .264 LBC. So it's not true that the .264 LBC is just the 6.5 Grendel with a different name. The chamber is different. Close yes, but no cigar.

We have been pounding a truck load of 6.5 LBC factory ammo by Precision Firearms through our AR's with AA barrels and bolts without a single hiccup or problem and holding half MOA out to 500 yards. To be up front SCREW Alexander Arms. Our barrels were purchase used.

Four of us grew tired of repeated phone calls to AA after our barrel delivery dates had passed, we heard every excuse you could imagine for the next 8 months. Concealed our orders and months later we get our CC billed. Then the phone answering lap dog gets nasty when we ask "What the H#LL" She was sweet as could be when she was spouting out excuses as to why our barrels were 8 months late. Something tells me it wasn't the barrel manufacturers? But how the barrel manufacturers were dealing with AA's circus act. AA might as well shut the doors, they screwed up. Everything just moved around them and continued. Greed was the bottom line, AA's name holds little weight when it comes to the "6.5 PPC" It never was his to begin with.

Once it was a no go with the military contracts, it would have been better to let the building burn to the ground and walk away with the insurance check. Guess some people are into the slow death thing.

I was entertaining the thought of contacting Satern themselves and ordering a 28" Stainless fluted for a winter AR build to use on Groundhogs in the spring.

Smack, I would be surprised if you can even contact Steve Satern. That's been the problem for a very long time. He stopped answering phone calls and emails.

Good luck on getting a barrel.

I had been looking for a Grendel upper. A quikc look at the LB site looked like full rifles only for the .264 LBC . Is that correct? Anyone other than LB doing an upper?

There are more then a few out there that make uppers, but if they aren't an AA with the premium barrel they are what I consider junkers. I route to go is get a 6.5 CSS barrel kit and build an upper. It's not really that hard. The CSS barrel is a quality Lothar Walther barrel. Take about 15 minutes to build a flat top upper if the upper receiver you buy is a complete one, that is with the forward assist and dust cover already on it.

Sabre Defense builds a hell of a barrel and most of their 6.5 Grendel barrels come with the bolt. You can swap out the barrel and the bolt on your .223/ 5.56 upper in no time and be good to go.

Sabe Defense link:

http://www.sabredefence.com/pr...php#products/barrels


With Sabre, unlike frikn AA. You will get your barrel right away or in a timely manner.

quote:

Originally posted by SMACK!!!!:
Sabre Defense builds a hell of a barrel and most of their 6.5 Grendel barrels come with the bolt. You can swap out the barrel and the bolt on your .223/ 5.56 upper in no time and be good to go.

Sabe Defense link:

http://www.sabredefence.com/pr...php#products/barrels


With Sabre, unlike frikn AA. You will get your barrel right away or in a timely manner.

Smack, true what you say about the Sabre barrel, but...it's not a match target barrel for those who are looking for the most in long range target shooting or hunting..it's not as accurate as a premium barrel such as the Satern, the Lothar Walther 6.5 CSS, or the Les Baer 264 LBC.

Ever shot one? We have, plenty accurate. Sabre's 24" Stainless fluted Heavy bench target barrel. It's about as much of a match barrel as one can get.

Now you're talking. I thought we were referring to the standard run of the mill chromed bore model. The one you describes should shoot, but again, I'll bet won't shoot like a Satern or LW.

$1295 for that 6.5 Grendel upper is quite high,it had better shoot for that kind of money. I'll still put my money on Les Baer, Satern, and LW.

We just purchase the barrels, we build our own rifles. Wish White Oak would make a Grendel barrel, their .204 Ruger match barrels shoot wonderfully accurate.

What's the turn over time for barrels from Sabre to you?

I have project of 6,5mm grendel rifle to sako A1 action so where i find real chamber drawing/dimension?

quote:

Originally posted by Ukko:
I have project of 6,5mm grendel rifle to sako A1 action so where i find real chamber drawing/dimension?

Damn near impossible because Bill Alexander won't let anyone see it. He's also changed it at least one time or more but claims he hasn't.
I'll see if I dig something up for you.

Okay...here are dimensions for a 6.5 Grendel chamber in a bolt action style rifle:

I've made quite a few 6.5 Grendels and now switched to the 264 LBC using shot out 6.5 target barrels. Take a 30" Krieger with 1200 rounds of 6.5-284 though it and cut 6-8 inches off the chamber end and you have an extremely accurate barrel! Lands look brand new 4" ahead of the throat. I've also used Rock Creek 5R cut barrels, and a LW or two and they all shoot very well. IMO I've gotten better accuracy out of the 'seasoned' Kriegers, but they all do 1/2 MOA.