I'm looking for performance equal to the 338 WinMag in a rimmed cartridge (for use in single or double rifles). Anyone know the std pressure of the WinMag round? I want to operate at a lower pressure than regular belted mags, but still keep velocity up - which means I will have to go to a larger case.

What about necking 45-90 (or even 45-120) brass down to 338 as a way to get a very sturdy rim and increased case capacity? If we load these cases to Marlin-type pressures for strong break open actions, what sort of capacity will I need to equal 338 WinMag ballistics? Anyone with software handy care to run a quick estimate?? Staying with the basic 45 case should keep the head thrust down even at these pressures, I think. Feel free to correct me, though.

I know about the 9.3x74R, and I do like the cartridge, but the velocity is not what I am looking for. Besides, I am planning on a 9.3x64 in the very near future I know about the 338-74 Keith also, which is the 9.3x74 case necked to .338, but here again, velocity is lacking a bit. In the report I saw, they ran this through a Ruger #1, which is in a different strength league than double rifles as well, so they were able to run at belted mag pressures with ease.

Is this a possibility, or are the pressure limits just out of reach to get equal performance? Since there is no action, a 24" bbl would probably be the target length. thanks for the inputs. maxman

338/ 9.3x74 R as describe in Wilcat ( Wolt publising ) is a very nice cartridge wich duplicate the 338 WIN mag with very case quality ( RWS or Norma .. ) and plenty of case , case availbilty is important

if you are interesting I have more than 6000 once fired ( RWS and Norma ) case in 9.3x74 R for wildcating ...

at this time I built a 408 Black powder on 9.3x74 R look as a short 405 WIN but with 408 bullet

good shooting

DAN TEC

There's a few that should work.
I would find whichever Nitro case you could get a hold of at a reasonable price, then screw around with COL on QuickLoad or the like until you figure out how long it needs to be.
Huntington's has Bell 50 Shaprs Basic in 3.25" length, for $32/20pcs. Being .568" at the base instead of .513" (?) you may get away with a 2.5" case.
FYI, the 50 Sharps necked down with no other changes will give you about 100g of water to the top, if you want to start there.
Compared to the WinMag's 80 or 83g, that's about 25% more room. (20% without the neck.)
What's the plan?

Maxman,
You aren't going to get 338 velocities out of a double rifle. Basic principle of double rifles is a large caliber bullet driven at modest velocity in a low pressure round.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

30r Blaser is a high pressure round for break actions, loaded by rws 860m/s with 180g bullet.
7*65r might do it to

Kimmo

The 500/416 x 3-1/4" case is plentiful, thick and going from 416 to 338 shouldn'be difficult.

maxman,

It may be Werner Reb's 8,5x63R that you are looking for.

62,5gr of R907 and a standard primer push Hornady's 200gr bullet at 2,920fps.

64,0gr of R904 and a standard primer pushe Hornady's 250gr bullet at 2,625fps.

as published in Dynamit Nobel's reloading manual (Ed. 1998, Wiederladen, page 336)

hope it helps.

montero

MAX, I have recently been working w/ a Ruger #1 in .337x74Keith/25 1/2"bbl. I really like the round. I can get 2850fps w/ the 225gr NAB & on a good day it is a MOA rifle. Fireforming is easy, case cap. is very close to the .338WM & w/ a 26"bbl. you can reach .338WM vel. w/o straining anything. If you'ld like a dummy round, drop me a line.
I agree w/ Rusty on his point of trying to get .338WM vel. out of a double. I think this type of round is best suited to a single shot, but that's not so bad.

[ 11-28-2003, 22:37: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I mentioned the 500/416 Kriegoff specifically because it has the case capacity to do just what you want...338 Win Mag velocities at double gun pressures. It was developed to give 416 Rem Mag velocity (and 416 Rigby) at lower pressure for doubles. I bet if someone who has it ran Quickload it would do the same for 338 with any bullet weight. Midway and Huntington's sell Bell 500/416 brass that would only need neck sizing and trimming as the neck may be a little long for 338 bullets as is.

Good suggestions, all. I might have to do a bit more research on the 9.3x74 case. The last reports I heard of the 338-74 wildcat were of it lagging the 338 WinMag by some 200-300 fps. Of course, this would not be a factor if I were going to be working with a #1. Here, pressure is not a real concern.

The plan is to build a good 200 yd big game rifle on a break action (single or double - double preferably) using a rimmed cartridge. I had thought about one in 303 British as it is available factory loaded, but the velocity is not there for me. Same with the 9.3x74R.

I realize that the general purpose of a double is a big, slow bullet - but I think there is room to expand on this concept quite a bit. With good velocity, it should be straightforward to regulate the double for a 100 yd zero, and then be able to take 200 yd shots without much worry. Not to downplay the art of regulating a double - don't get me wrong there! If the velocity is there, then trajectory will be adequate for longer shots out of a double. All you need is practice. If you know the rifle, the shot will be there.

I like the .338 bore quite a lot, and I like the large sturdy rims of the 45-70/90/120 family of cases. I shoot a break action 45-70 at the moment, so I have the stuff to work with that case size. What if I took a 45-90 case and ran it part way into the 338 WinMag sizer? Would it neck down just the end or buckle the lower portion of the case? I'm just not sure if this will give me enough case volume. I had thought about using the 50 Sharps basic brass, but that's as far as I got.

fredj338 - I'd be glad to take of your dummy rounds for comparison. Please send me a PM with your requirements, details, etc. I'd even be interested in an unaltered 9.3x74R case if you have any to spare. Thanks in advance!

I'm not familiar with the 500/416 or the 8,5x63R. I'll have to look into that brass as well. Are there case dimensions available?

Maybe it's not so practical nowadays, but I'd love to hunt with a double, and the big african calibers are very much out of place for me. I have several .30 caliber rifles already, so I don't need another one of those. I'd dearly love a double in 375 Flanged Magnum, but they are quite spendy. I think a handy medium bore double that fully equals the 338 WinMag would be great for American game, and there's no way I'd load one up with a rimless cartridge. It's just not right. I'll have to ponder things a bit more after I get one of fredj338's rounds to see what can be done. maxman

maxman

please take a look at

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/8,5x64/8,5x63.htm

you'll see lots of information on various 8,5mm (.338"), including the 8,5-30R, another one worth
looking at.


regards,

montero

Maxman,

Once again I'd like to advise you to go with a bolt action or a Ruger #1 type action, if you are looking for high velocity and long range accuracy. All of the doubles I have seen, have been designed for close in work, say 100 yds. on in. Just being regulated at 100 yards doesn't mean Kentucky windage will get you results at 200.

The 500/416 in my opine will become a future standard for double rifles. While it may not be a "Stopper" by others standards, it has a great penetrating 416 bullet. Recoil is not as bad as that of a 470, but still a bit much for me.

High velocity and long range were not the goals of the double rifle makers. The baisic idea was a large caliber bullet, driven at modest speed, at realatively low pressure, in tropical heat.

I am sure you could accomplish your goal with a double, but the costs and the practical results would be disappointing to you. Just my opine.

Max, you've got mail. I agree w/ Rusty on this. If you want a nice stalking rifle, get @ #1 & rebarrel it. Otherwise I would get a nice double in 9.3x74 & shoot that. They are much more affordable than the bigger .470s & feeding them is cheaper too. In a pinch you could take buffalo w/ one & I think it would do well on plainsgame out to as far as you can shoot w/ open sights.

As you are looking at useing a Ruger type action why not just go with the 33winchester, and work loads upward, its a great round and can be formed out of 45-70 brass

Fredj - my e-mail is acting up. Could you please send me a Private Message here instead? thanks!

I do hunt with a single shot 45-70 already, so I know how the big heavy slow bullet deal works. I have a custom 338-06AI that I use as my bolt rifle (wow - what a round...), so I am looking for that same level of 338 WinMag performance in a double. This would be an ongoing project for me, not something I'd just buy. Like I said, it might not be practical, but I've been known to go off on some odd tangent just to see if it can be done. I think this will be possible.

This rifle will be for north america only - deer, bear, elk, maybe moose. There are lots of doubles around in 30-06, etc, so I know more than one person is ok with using a high velocity cartridge in a double. My only problem with this is the use of a rimless case. Not a good idea to me.

I'm not looking for a long range tack driver, but I do shoot pretty well with iron sights. If the equipment is good, I would take a 200 yd shot with proper irons, and this is where the extra velocity comes in. The elevation adjustment needed would be much less - you might even be able to ignore the drop completely at this distance and use a bit of windage to get a great shot.

To this end, the 8,5x30R Blaser mentioned by Kimmo E and montero might just be what I need. Of course, getting brass here might be a problem, which is why I was considering starting with something common, like the 45 Basic. That plus the pressure question. This is a high presure round, and I'm not sure I want to run one of those in a double. I could always regulate it for a lower pressure load, I guess.

Oh, well, I might need to do some more pondering on this one. An existing rifle in 9,3x74R or 375 Flanged Mag would definitely be the easiest route, but I am looking at this from a project viewpoint. It would be quite satisfying to hunt with a double you built yourself! thanks for all the tips, though! maxman

Hello Max, if you e-mail me your postal address I'll drop you a dummy round. Good luck on the project.

fredj-

e-mail sent. thanks again! maxman