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Just a Wildcater Qestion
Just a Wildcater Qestion
I think the bullet you selected might be constraining your results. It is a very long bullet and it takes up a lot of capacity even in the 375 H&H.
It will never equal the 375 H&H, but if you tweak case length to 2.60" (like the 375 Ruger), increase OAL to 3.34"(like a 30/06) and use RN or Semi-Pointed bullets I think you could close the gap somewhat. Something like a 235 gr Speer which actually works fine on a lot of medium game and for large game a 300 gr RN like a Woodleigh would be better options for that case I think.
13 June 2013, 04:08
MickinColo Cartridge : 375-284 Winchester JFE Long
Bullet : .375, 300, Woodleigh RN SN 44HD
Useable Case Capaci: 76.016 grain H2O = 4.936 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 610.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63817 psi, or 440 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
2 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17 100.0 73.5 4.76 2627 100.0 57404 8675 1.218 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 100.0 73.5 4.76 2627 100.0 57404 8675 1.218 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 100.0 74.1 4.80 2609 98.5 59640 8843 1.214 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 100.0 74.1 4.80 2609 98.5 59640 8843 1.214 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 98.9 70.8 4.59 2603 99.9 63817 8281 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203 old 99.6 70.6 4.57 2602 100.0 63817 7972 1.208 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP3 99.6 70.6 4.57 2602 100.0 63817 7972 1.208 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 7 93.3 70.2 4.55 2574 99.8 63817 7967 1.205 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520 92.3 68.2 4.42 2568 100.0 63817 7450 1.214 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex D073.6 94.5 68.2 4.42 2568 100.0 63817 7450 1.214 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4064 99.4 68.2 4.42 2566 100.0 63817 7448 1.231 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4007 SSC 100.0 71.1 4.60 2563 98.3 62900 8245 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 100.0 69.3 4.49 2554 100.0 60086 7833 1.240 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 100.0 74.6 4.84 2554 98.5 54687 8750 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 100.0 68.6 4.44 2550 100.0 60309 7844 1.235 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 100.0 71.6 4.64 2546 99.5 55291 8545 1.264 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 93.5 64.1 4.15 2539 100.0 63817 7142 1.240 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R901 93.5 62.3 4.03 2522 100.0 63817 7131 1.226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R907 100.0 68.8 4.46 2486 97.5 56828 8043 1.264 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 100.0 68.8 4.46 2486 97.5 56828 8043 1.264 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 100.0 70.1 4.54 2478 99.2 50247 8314 1.328
Norma URP 100.0 69.3 4.49 2473 99.1 50083 8277 1.314
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 100.0 69.3 4.49 2472 99.1 50033 8273 1.314
Ramshot Hunter 100.0 72.4 4.69 2470 97.6 49167 8511 1.316
Norma 204 100.0 72.4 4.69 2464 94.9 51317 8390 1.294
Lovex S065 100.0 68.6 4.44 2462 98.7 54387 7903 1.291 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 100.0 69.3 4.49 2446 97.4 51919 8079 1.316
Somchem S365 100.0 69.7 4.52 2434 100.0 44735 8060 1.368
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 100.0 71.1 4.61 2431 96.5 49823 8139 1.324
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 100.0 67.8 4.39 2384 99.6 45689 7575 1.365
Raufoss RA4 100.0 70.1 4.54 2383 93.5 46250 8112 1.356
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 100.0 70.1 4.54 2383 93.5 46250 8112 1.356
ADI AR 2209 100.0 69.7 4.52 2360 92.8 44246 8145 1.376
Alliant Reloder-19 100.0 70.1 4.54 2350 92.8 43140 8167 1.396 13 June 2013, 04:12
MickinColo Cartridge : 375-284 Winchester JFE Long
Bullet : .375, 235, Speer SSP 2471
Useable Case Capaci: 80.736 grain H2O = 5.242 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 610.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63817 psi, or 440 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Lovex D073.6 98.8 75.8 4.91 2937 100.0 63817 8209 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520 96.6 75.8 4.91 2937 100.0 63817 8209 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 7 97.2 77.6 5.03 2920 98.7 63817 8623 1.074 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2495 98.2 71.5 4.63 2916 100.0 63817 7891 1.100 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex D073.5 92.5 73.9 4.79 2899 100.0 63817 8004 1.086 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2460 92.3 73.9 4.79 2899 100.0 63817 8004 1.086 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R901 97.7 69.1 4.48 2888 100.0 63817 7865 1.090 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H380 100.0 76.0 4.93 2864 98.0 57550 8768 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 100.0 75.2 4.88 2853 99.6 55605 8605 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 100.0 75.2 4.88 2853 99.6 55605 8605 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 100.0 78.1 5.06 2845 98.8 49554 9265 1.160
Elcho 17 100.0 78.1 5.06 2845 98.8 49554 9265 1.160
Accurate 4064 100.0 72.8 4.72 2834 100.0 55755 8085 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 100.0 78.7 5.10 2816 94.4 51305 9055 1.156
Winchester 760 100.0 78.7 5.10 2816 94.4 51305 9055 1.156
Somchem S355 100.0 72.8 4.72 2785 99.1 52436 8380 1.169
Rottweil R903 100.0 73.6 4.77 2784 99.1 51650 8407 1.179
IMR 4007 SSC 100.0 75.5 4.89 2782 94.5 55242 8442 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 100.0 76.0 4.93 2753 96.4 47522 8847 1.205
PB Clermont PCL 511 100.0 79.3 5.14 2750 94.2 47299 8920 1.196
Bofors RP7 100.0 73.1 4.73 2693 93.1 49870 8176 1.197
Rottweil R907 100.0 73.1 4.73 2693 93.1 49870 8176 1.197
Lovex S065 100.0 72.8 4.72 2669 95.0 47521 8119 1.225
Norma URP 100.0 73.6 4.77 2667 95.2 42899 8514 1.254
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 100.0 73.6 4.77 2666 95.2 42858 8509 1.254
Accurate 4350 100.0 74.4 4.82 2661 95.2 42181 8586 1.278
Ramshot Hunter 100.0 76.9 4.98 2654 92.6 42570 8590 1.255
Norma 204 100.0 76.9 4.98 2646 89.1 44691 8340 1.231
Lovex S070 100.0 73.6 4.77 2639 92.8 45077 8196 1.252
Somchem S365 100.0 74.0 4.80 2616 97.5 38192 8505 1.312
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 100.0 75.6 4.90 2613 91.2 42805 8175 1.263
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 100.0 72.0 4.67 2571 96.2 39352 7880 1.301
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 100.0 74.4 4.82 2553 87.1 40309 8000 1.291
Raufoss RA4 100.0 74.4 4.82 2553 87.1 40309 8000 1.291
ADI AR 2209 100.0 74.0 4.80 2523 85.9 38725 7974 1.311
IMR 4831 100.0 71.3 4.62 2515 93.1 36337 7948 1.359
Alliant Reloder-19 100.0 74.4 4.82 2512 86.0 37639 8005 1.331
Rottweil R904 100.0 73.4 4.75 2511 85.5 39903 7631 1.303
Somchem S361 100.0 79.3 5.14 2500 84.6 40735 7505 1.303
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 100.0 74.4 4.82 2486 85.5 36805 7862 1.345
Winchester Supreme 780 100.0 78.5 5.08 2484 85.8 38199 7683 1.326
Norma MRP 100.0 77.7 5.03 2476 85.0 33701 8462 1.385
Somchem S385 100.0 75.2 4.88 2467 87.2 35576 7782 1.374
IMR 7828 SSC 100.0 76.4 4.95 2437 80.0 35029 7869 1.370
Hodgdon H4831 SC 100.0 75.2 4.88 2430 81.2 36221 7466 1.357
Vihtavuori N560 100.0 76.0 4.93 2416 78.9 32950 7963 1.403
ADI AR 2213 100.0 75.2 4.88 2416 79.7 34637 7693 1.377 13 June 2013, 05:08
ramrod340quote:
It will never equal the 375 H&H, but if you tweak case length to 2.60" (like the 375 Ruger), increase OAL to 3.34"(like a 30/06) and use RN or Semi-Pointed bullets I think you could close the gap somewhat.
except for using 06 cylinder brass and 2.65" that would be my 380PDK or the 380Howell.
260 accubonds at 2700fps from a 24" barrel. Only gain over the H&H is 5 down.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
MickinColo - Thanks for the additional data.
Your QL runs show that such a case would pretty much get you to the original performance level of the 375 H&H with a number of powders, which is not too shabby at all. Plus you can get 4 or 5 down in a regular size magazine and all that in a standard length action with a 30/06 bolt face.
13 June 2013, 16:13
jeffeossoOr - buy a 376 steyr. If you must keep .473 bolt face, then turn the rim and extractor on them.
Not being a party pooper as this thread was about filling niches. The steyr does everything asked of an expensive custom brass (which gives me chills ) run required case, except a trivial gunsmithing problem
I tend to agree that for a 375 cal there are already numerous options but it was interesting to see the ballistics potential in such a cartridge.
I think a long 284 case would probably be better utilized in a 40 cal application. Sort of like a 400 Whelen but with a bit more shoulder to headspace on and in 412 cal so you can use 450/400 or 405 Win bullets. It could be a modern rimless 450/400 in small package.
15 June 2013, 02:41
MickinColoInteresting, but QL has problems with straight walled case designs. This cartridge is very close too being straight.
This is for the new reloading people out there. QL (Quickload) is not a reloading manual. It's all theory.It's a program that gives people ideas, not answers. In the reloading world, you need to check out everything and prove everything.
Cartridge : 400-284 Winchester JFE Long
Bullet : .400, 200, Hornady HP/XTP 40060
Useable Case Capaci: 74.855 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.785 inch = 70.74 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 610.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate 2460 100.0 74.3 4.81 2971 95.5 48994 6850 1.066
Lovex D073.5 100.0 74.0 4.80 2962 95.4 48437 6832 1.071
Accurate 2520 100.0 72.8 4.71 2847 93.9 39545 6825 1.148
Rottweil R901 100.0 65.6 4.25 2819 95.1 41179 6528 1.163
SNPE Vectan SP 7 100.0 74.0 4.80 2786 86.3 41226 6455 1.142
Accurate 2495 100.0 67.5 4.37 2784 96.7 34859 6846 1.236
Lovex D073.6 100.0 71.1 4.61 2773 92.6 36358 6662 1.191
Hodgdon H380 100.0 70.5 4.57 2617 82.1 32752 6174 1.254
Accurate 4064 100.0 67.5 4.37 2595 90.7 28593 6437 1.347
Bofors RP3 100.0 69.8 4.52 2593 85.6 29847 6317 1.301
Norma 203 old 100.0 69.8 4.52 2593 85.6 29847 6317 1.301
Somchem S355 100.0 67.5 4.37 2553 84.5 29593 6044 1.311
IMR 4007 SSC 100.0 70.0 4.53 2544 77.0 33037 5701 1.267
Rottweil R903 100.0 68.3 4.42 2516 83.4 27717 6032 1.347
Elcho 17 100.0 72.4 4.69 2516 78.9 29419 6243 1.312
Alliant Reloder-17 100.0 72.4 4.69 2516 78.9 29419 6243 1.312
Hodgdon H414 100.0 73.0 4.73 2510 74.0 30193 5914 1.301
Winchester 760 100.0 73.0 4.73 2510 74.0 30193 5914 1.301
Vihtavuori N550 100.0 70.5 4.57 2462 77.1 27131 5915 1.361
Bofors RP7 100.0 67.7 4.39 2453 74.9 29696 5435 1.329
Rottweil R907 100.0 67.7 4.39 2453 74.9 29696 5435 1.329
PB Clermont PCL 511 100.0 73.5 4.76 2437 72.9 28135 5724 1.347
Lovex S065 100.0 67.5 4.37 2425 77.0 27485 5471 1.370
Lovex S070 100.0 68.3 4.42 2366 73.0 25459 5351 1.414
Norma URP 100.0 68.3 4.42 2364 74.3 24938 5538 1.417
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 100.0 68.3 4.42 2363 74.2 24915 5533 1.418
Norma 204 100.0 71.3 4.62 2346 67.2 27064 5163 1.379
Ramshot Hunter 100.0 71.3 4.62 2340 70.2 25341 5385 1.415
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 100.0 70.1 4.54 2311 69.5 24877 5156 1.428
Accurate 4350 100.0 69.0 4.47 2293 72.1 22093 5488 1.496
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 100.0 66.8 4.33 2266 74.4 23146 5104 1.472
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 100.0 69.0 4.47 2256 64.8 24416 4866 1.447
Raufoss RA4 100.0 69.0 4.47 2256 64.8 24416 4866 1.447
Somchem S365 100.0 68.6 4.45 2249 73.1 21895 5366 1.509
Rottweil R904 100.0 68.0 4.41 2235 64.1 24323 4674 1.452
ADI AR 2209 100.0 68.6 4.45 2217 62.3 23687 4703 1.470
Somchem S361 100.0 73.5 4.76 2212 63.1 24246 4574 1.464
Alliant Reloder-19 100.0 69.0 4.47 2208 62.8 22789 4770 1.494
IMR 4831 100.0 66.1 4.28 2195 70.1 20506 4985 1.553
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 100.0 69.0 4.47 2182 62.2 22289 4662 1.511
Winchester Supreme 780 100.0 72.8 4.71 2150 61.4 22706 4490 1.508
Somchem S385 100.0 69.8 4.52 2132 63.1 20192 4643 1.574
Hodgdon H4831 SC 100.0 69.8 4.52 2122 57.8 22003 4303 1.529
ADI AR 2213 100.0 69.8 4.52 2082 53.7 21057 4145 1.560
IMR 7828 SSC 100.0 70.9 4.59 2078 52.8 21071 4156 1.562
Norma MRP 100.0 72.0 4.67 2077 55.9 19658 4502 1.600
Vihtavuori N560 100.0 70.5 4.57 2056 52.5 19562 4264 1.606
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 100.0 69.8 4.52 2051 55.5 19071 4333 1.621
Alliant Reloder-22 100.0 69.8 4.52 2051 55.5 19071 4333 1.621
Raufoss RA15 100.0 69.8 4.52 2051 55.5 19071 4333 1.621
Vihtavuori N160 100.0 66.2 4.29 2045 58.8 19787 4015 1.601
Hodgdon H4831 100.0 67.1 4.35 2025 55.1 19478 3973 1.612 15 June 2013, 07:45
jeffeossoJfe. Depending on who you ask the 284 is a turned down 9.3x64 or 10.75x68. Both of which share about the same internal capacity as an hh case of the same shape. NEARLY.
The 10.75x68 has minimal shoulder
So if we start with either a 376 steyr or 375 remmag you get what, 75gr h20? So, close enough without custom brass.
Custom brass is "impossible" to predict and therefore outside of anything i will do.
Heck even the 376 steyr is hard enough to come by
Just to round out the discussion on a 40/284 long, Mick did some further QL runs using 300 & 400 gr bullets. The model suggest velocities in excess of 2200 fps for the 400 gr and around 2700 fps for 300 gr bullets with a number of powders and within acceptable pressure limits.
These ballistics not only exceed the specs that you generally see quoted for the 400 Whelen, but also exceed the original specs of 450/400 and its twin, the 404J.