Some reloading die makers will make a set of wildcat caliber dies if you send them fired cases.

Here is my dilemma. I will be building a wildcat caliber rifle. Where do I get the reloading dies to make the initial cases I will be firing in order to generate the fired cases the die maker will be making my dies out of?

Can the die maker work from a cartridge diagram instead of a fired case?

Is it worth the trouble to send fired cases and have the custom dies made?

H. C.

HenryC470--

It depends on what wildcat you have. Give me some dimensions and I can tell you how to fireform the first case to send to the die maker.

DON'T send paper dimensions.

The die maker has to take into account the spring-back of fired brass AND the spring-back of resized brass in order to come up with the dimensions of the reamer they have to make before they can make dies.

Usually you just get a necking die or neck expander die and seat the bullet to touch the lands to maintain headspace on the parent case for fireforming. Form the cases and send three or more of them to the die maker.

The chamber reamer maker may be able to make a resize reamer. See:

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/wild_cat.asp

Chamber "finish reamers minimum +.0004"..." over cartridge case max specs.

"Resize reamers are -.0035" under on body with a correct neck size" depending on the brass: make, necked up or necked down, inside/outside turning, etc., including all factors that affect the neck OD with loaded bullet.

The fireformed dummies with bullets will set the neck dimensions.

What be ye wildcat? There may be common dies you could use to fireform for some dummies when you have the chambered rifle in your hands.

[ 04-06-2003, 22:52: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Sending out a few fired cases to make a set of wildcat dies is probably the ancient way of doing things. The best way for you would be to have the reamer made first and make sure the reamer maker send you a drawing of it. With this reamer drawing, the die maker will know exactly what to do. It is much more precise way to manufacture anything nowadays. Good luck.

I agree with Mingo. I had reamer drawings made up and submitted the drawings in order to have dies made. Everything worked out perfectly. Since I have to start with Mast 416 Rigby cylindrical brass and due to the overall length of the case the other option wasn't really open to me.

470 Mbogo

470Mbogo,
Who made your dies? I am working on the idea for a wildcat now. Pacific Tool and Gauge can make my reamer but the question remains who is the best outfit to make the dies?

Thank You

[ 04-07-2003, 06:22: Message edited by: WyoJoe ]

The Gun Maker should be able to make the dies. This way he has full control of the process and will make them correct. Nothing worse than ordering dies from one of the Die manufacturers, waiting for 6 months, then discovering that the neck is the wrong size in the resize die, or the seat die is reamed for a .416 instead of a .411 bullet or vice versa.

If the Gun Maker cannot make the dies, then I suggest you find a Gun Maker that knows how.

What is your basic brass? Give us some details and we can help. If you do not want the details public, then fire off emails.

I have "Universal" dies that I use for the initial case forming. These dies use removable neck bushings and are used for setting the neck and shoulder for the first fire forming. And I have "Universal" neck expand dies, with replacable expanders of different sizes, likewise used for the initial case forming. Sometimes you have to bump the neck up oversize, then size it down, like in making a 458 on the 404 Jeffery brass. Simpler would be to use 404 Basic Brass, which is straight with no neck.

A good collecting of the "Universal" dies, bushings and expand plugs really helps in making up wildcat brass.

And, for the odd or new design wildcats, I generally order a finish chamber reamer and a resize reamer. I use the resize reamer, for guess what, making the resize die. And I use the finish chamber reamer for making a neck size die, with removable neck size bushing, and a bullet seat die.

Chances are the cartridge you are designing has already been tried. Again, give us some details and we can help out. There are no secrets in wildcats, about everything has been done, and some of the best cartridges have disappeared into history.

Playing with odd wildcats ain't cheap, it takes machine hours to make up all the dies, this equates to money spent.

Henry, another note. Don't design a cartridge, design a chamber that will accept the basic brass. I have worked with a lot of wildcats, and there are a few rules of experience (for lack of a better term) that are used in specifying the neck diameter, base diameter, case wall taper, and other dimensions of the chamber.

Once you have the chamber worked out, send your drawing to a good reamer maker (yes, we have a few bad makers in the industry) and ask for their review and recommendations. From the results of this exercise, the reamer maker will have enough info to make the finish chamber reamer and a resize reamer.

Cost for a pair of reamers starts at about $325 and goes up, so be prepared to take out a loan at the Credit Union. Add to this the cost of making the dies, in addition to the barrel work, and you can see why Wildcats can be expensive.

Again, give us some info and I am sure your desired cartridge performance has already been met. Unless, of course, you just want to have a unique cartridge with your name on it! I have been guilty of this a few times.

What I'm trying to do is build a 460 G&A caliber rifle on a Montana M1999 Long Action.

I am going to be bugging you all a lot over this rifle.

H. C.

Hi WyoJoe,
My dies were made by RCBS from the reamer drawings. Dave a CH4D has made all his dies from the reamer drawings also. The only snag is that I explained to RCBS that my cartridge is made from Mast brass and that the neck portion of the brass was .010 thick and the die should neck the brass down enough to create the neccessary neck tension with most bullets being .474. They didn't make it quite tight enough to create the proper neck tension for Woodleigh bullets. They are on the small side. I asked Woodleigh about this and their reply was that I didn't have an accurate enough way to measure the bullet diameter. I left it at that but I would think that if I can put anyone else's bullet in my digital calipers and drop theirs through that it would be smaller. To load Woodleigh bullets I have to take the expander ball off of my dies after depriming and sizing and do the necks again. I went over this with Dave at CH4D and his dies should be right on. The confusion was on the reamer drawings they allowed some extra clearance in the neck portion in case another brass was sourced with say a .012 or .014 neck thickness. If you go from reamer drawing just make sure you consider anything that could cause you a problem.
Take good care and best of luck with your project,
470 Mbogo

HenryC470,
The 460 G&A almost made it to factory production status with CZ/BRNO. It didn't because the shoulder is so slight that factory tolerances were not good enough for the loaded ammo to be reliable. A careful handloader will have no problem it appears.

As such, the dies and the reamer should be readily available. Look around.

Get the barrel and the action and have the good smith thread and chamber the barrel. If the barrel maker has the reamer, they may do it, but what barrel maker keeps this reamer on hand? Some might, but I don't know.

I feel better about the gunsmith I know and trust doing the job.

PS: Redding will do the dies from your chambering reamer drawing. However, Redding also makes wildcat dies by the ancient method of reading your three dummy rounds. They use some sophisticated optical comparator equipment to do it. This would eliminate any neck problems arising from doing it from paper specs, assuming you stuck with the brass that you sent them.

Here is another link:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/customadedies.html

[ 04-07-2003, 08:57: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Hello Henry C

I know nothing about the wildcat you are working with, I am working with a wildcat on the other end of the spectrum, the 20-223 Ackley improved.

You might not even need or want a custom die.

I thought I did.

Now I dont.

I sent Redding 3 cases and they sent me a letter. The letter said that the custom FL sizer would cost more than the new barrel and machine work to make it fit my rifle.

Imagine that!

So I got creative.

I already had a Redding bushing 223 AI die, I put a new bushing in that die, and that is how I get 223 Remington to be 20 caliber.

I use a Hornady seater, 14 bucks for that seater, and it will work with any 20 caliber cartridge.

And I am working on a solution to the sizing problem once these Ackelys have been shot a couple times, I will need a kiss to the shoulder. But that gives me time.

The final analysis is that I am going to get my dieset together for nowhere near the quoted price.

Something to consider.

Henry,

Ah ha, another .460 G&A! I have fired a couple of these at Gunsite, and they were very nice. I well understand Jeff Cooper's positive feelings for this cartridge.

As Ron said above the .460 G&A didn't graduate to factory status because the manufacturing engineers of two separate operations (one American one European)decided that the normal range in tolerances for factory chambers combined with the normal tolerances in factory ammunition would cause headspace problems. If your ammunition is built by a careful reloader, then things will work.

You will also want to source your brass first, because not all .404 Jeff brass is created equal, or even in the same sizes.

I would definitely have the gunmaker create the dies as well.

jim dodd

HenryC,
Pac-Nor of Brookings Or lists the 460 G&A as a chamber reamer in stock in the wildcat list.
I have had them furnish 2 pre-chambered barrels for me so far and will end up with more...A 8mm Rem Mag is on my list of "needs". I already have a 416 Rem Mag and a 500A2 that Chris &/Or his associates have done in the last year. Splendid
,Stupendous,Fantastic,excellent barrels. I would think he as a barrel-maker would be happy to recommend a source for dies for a reamer he has in stock. Link attached...45nut


www.pac-nor.com/wildcat/

Thanks a lot guys.

A friend of mine is looking to rebarrel his elk rifle, and he is leaning toward a Montana barrel. Montana seems to offer the best value in a hand-lapped barrel.

Would it make sense, since I'm buying a Montana action, to have Montana barrel it, and then to take the barrelled action to a gunsmith to have sights and an extra recoil lug added and put it in a stock?

Would I be about done at that point?

H. C.

Why you don't get some die blanks and have your gunsmith ream them using the same reamer he uses for the chamber?? That's what the old timers often did, when creating new wildcats!!

[ 04-14-2003, 04:02: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

The resizing die should be -0.0035" under the brass cartridge spec. to allow for springback in resizing the brass. The chamber reamer is oversize by +0.0004" over the max cartridge spec. Those are small increments, but they might add up to spoil ones day.

Don't the die blanks need to be polished and heat treated after reaming with the resize reamer?

Good, finished dies are hard enough to ruin a chambering reamer, i.e., harder than barrel steel, or so a gunsmith buddy told me.

Sumbuddy who know more?

Sorry, I did not understand a word.

A wildcat, a real wildcat is a new caliber,

a) maybe invented by me, or

b) invented and built by someone.

If a), I do not have a chambered rifle.
I have an idea, a drawing of the cartridge.

I send this drawing to a company to have reamers made, and a gunsmith will chamber a barrel and make the dies from die blanks.

If b), I make a chamber cast and send it to the reamer people. Rest as above.

Am I wrong ?

waitaminute---

I've designed and built several wildcats and still shoot some of them. I've NEVER built a rifle before I made a case to look at first. A drawing to me is almost useless when it comes to *really* seeing what it looks and feels like..... I gotta have brass in hand before it means anything....and then I usually change something before sending the dummy off to the reamer wizard for a chambering reamer.

With calibers that require fireforming I make a fireforming chamber to expand cases using pistol powder and grits.



I've formed everything from 17 Ackley Bees to 500 Jefferies with this tool. The receiver is bushed to 7/8x14 to take seating dies for firforming if you like. The FFchamber showed is a 240 Cobra made from a section of old barrel.

Once the rifle is shooting and appears to work as expected I send off a couple fired cases to the DIE maker. They measure the cases and make a reamer the proper size to cut the RESIZING die. I make the seater with the chambering reamer.

To make the initial cases I use a combination of other dies or a special necking die that uses drill bushings for resizing the neck and pushing shoulders back for the new caliber.

Jay, thank you for your lines and the photo.

I do not have equipment and skill to do the starting operations as you described.
That's one of the reasons why i do not wildcat.

I write this because I want to tell you that I find your photo mostly inspiring.

NO problem!! Just have your gunmaker chamber a resizing die with the reamer he uses for the CHAMBER!!!

eldeguello,
I think you're missing something stated here several times already, the reamer used to make the die "must" be smaller in diameter than the finish reamer or "no" resizing will result when it's run up into the die. The only person I know of that can make a resize die from your finish chamber reamer is Jim Carstensen, and he uses a pressed in thin sleeve that collapses a controled amount that will actually resize the case. Neil Jones cuts the resize die on a lathe and it's "smaller" in diameter by a certain amount to account for the springback and his use an adjustable shoulder bump bushing and neck bushing too. Jim and Neil both need a fired case to make the FL die, both can supply the neck die to size the neck and get cases formed initially. Neil uses the same finish reamer to cut the Neck die, he sends you this to form the cases, you send it back with a few case and he recuts the die and uses a smaller dia sleeve to make it a FL sizing die.

Jim Carstensen is making me a 30/338 Lapua 40 deg Imp seater die from a Wilson blank for $90 using my finish reamer. He's making the FL die with the same reamer (reamer was $135 from Dave Kiff) and fired cases with a Newlon die blank, which uses neck bushings, for $125. He gets $125 for a NK or FL bushing die, either one you want.

You might just call Pacnor, they may have the resize reamer along with the chamber reamer. If they do, have them do the dies, chamber and all. If they don't, have Dave Kiff make and send them a resize reamer based on "their" finish reamers current specs to finish the job. You'll get a nice product from them and be ready to go when it's in hand. The wait for the reamer from Dave will be 3-4 weeks. He makes the best reamers out there too, anyone will vouch for that.

Possibly another way of doing the first case forming step is to do some carefull thinking and measuring on the intended case dim. you want. Then get or buy some standard reloading dies (check Ebay) that have the case dim. you are looking to end up with.
Then take these dies and carefully cut the dies into about 1/2" to 3/4" long/tall short dies,then polish the cut ends and put a beveled angle (if needed) leading into the main die hole.

By using one side or the other of this short die, you can size down the original case to the finished case dim. you want. You can get several of these short dies from just a couple of regular dies, and have several neck size dies to work brass down with also.

This cutting short dies from standard dies(both sizing and seat dies)was an idea that I stumbled onto when trying to form my original wildcat case(hands on case)for looks and internal case capcity for the 22 wildcat case I designed in 1986 with double shoulders and necks.

I measured the brand of brass I intended to use (new factory cases),put the spec's that I wanted onto a paper drawing of the reamer spec's, this was then sent to PPG, White city,Or.
After a couple day waiting,called Dave, discussed the facts/information about this case design.
Several days later,Dave sent me the finished reamer spec's on paper,I confirmed the reamer spec's and about two weeks later I has holding my wildcat finish reamer in my hot grubbies.

I then made up a fire forming jig with the reamer and fire formed/sized the wildcat case till it fit the spec's I wanted.
I chambered and fitted the barrel,used these short dies to sized some cases, fired some loads to check the spec's out,after everything was to my liking,I then called RCBS and discussed my wildcat case design with them,sent the finished fire formed cases (from the chamber) and $$$, about 8 weeks later the die set came.
Everything worked out perfectly.
Just some food for thought,there are several ways to skin a cat.
Any other Ideas or suggestions out there?
Thank you,Don

Nvreloader--That is what I did in making my wildcats; is cut up, shorten, hone out, etc other
dies.And used them in the first load testing to
get the resizing operation right.Then I had a
regular full length resize die made.Like for my
700 HE I got a set of 700NE dies and cut a little
from bottom, opened the top, did a little honing,
and am able to make belted case from 50 cal
brass, usung my case spinner and tooling to start the step if the belt.For wildcatting it is always
best to build brass first.Ed.