With the case capacity of new rounds going through the roof and barrels melting down before we can sight them in, its time to go to technology for a fix, instead of just pouring in more and more powder.

For example, instead of using a 117 grain case capacity in the 300 RUM to get 3250 fps with a 308, 180 gr bullet, why not use a 338 Win mag case at 78 grs of capacity and do the same thing with a 338/308 sabot?

THIS is the majic of sabots...NOT pea weight 22 caliber bullets at 4000 fps. Oh, by the way...I have actually done this with 1 MOA accuracy.

Questions? Ask away!

Go ahead. Please be specific.

Ever since the company I work for did some internal ballistic work on the 120MM Main Tank Gun for DOD, I have been enthisiastice about scaling down sabot technology for practical huntinf and target work with small arms. So I worked wit 22/308 sabots for a while, since they were available and then had a local plastics injection company make me a few in different bore/caliber sizes and loaded them up as well.

These experiments led me to realize that THIN sabots have remarkablre accuracy potential and that small increases in bore diameter give big increases in velocity for a given weight bullet. In addition, if one stays within the normal range of bullet weight for a given round, the load book data works fine, and you don't loose efficiency like you do with very light bullets at very high velocities (like the Remington 22/308 Accelerators).

So, if you want to shoot a 180 gr .308 bullet 3300 fps one can use a 338 Win Mag case and bore with a 308/338 sabot, or a 300 RUM case with just a .308 bore. The sabot loads come right out of the Nosler Manual, 5th ED for the 338, 180 grain ballistic Tips. No problem, and a very clean bore to boot with 30% reduction in recoil over the RUM. I also used my 338 RUM to launch the same bullet 3620 fps with data from the same manual and a 26 inch bbl. Extraction is easy, and primers are barely flattened.

do your supplier make sabot for 6 mm in 30 cal and 6.5 bullet in 338 cal in the aim to
shoot 6 mm 107 gr match on 30.338 WIN MAG
and
6.5 match bullet in 338 LM

good shooting

DAN TEC

Sabot,

Of course this is quite interesting. Do you have any sabot's for sale?

Is there a downside such as poor accuracy or fouling?

Dantec -

Yes, I tried some 100 gr 6MM hornadys in a 270 sabot from a 270 Win and got 3500 fps, but the throat was a bit long and accuracy was 2.1 MOA. HOWEVER, I then tried the same bullet/Sabot combo in a 270 WSM with a tight throat and got 3811 fps and 0.55 MOA.

Savage 99 -

I do plan possibly to sell sabots and have already invested a fair amount of $ in a lot of tests, but I still need to work out something with BATF before risking any serious investment. However, I would rather license it to a big company than deal with the bigger market and liability. Another promising approach would be the mail order sale of sabot forming kits...a lot like regular reloading kits. Same price range.

They could easily pay for themselves in a few months as you no longer need jacketed bullets for many applications. You can use shorter bbls as well since the expansion ratio is based on sabot diameter, not bullet diameter. Also, you can try different shapes of sabots to match the throat and freebore of your rifle...this is where the accuracy potential lies. If one designed a chamber, throat and freebore for a rifle that shoots ONLY sabots, I honestly think it would take over the 1000 yard matches. Whether it would be legal for competition is another issue.

Remember thin sabots are not a lot different from patches, just slicker, easier to form into complex shapes and tougher.

[ 10-14-2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Sabot ]

I like the idea a lot, if you need someone to help test them for you, say the word. I hope it becomes a reality. Hmmmm, a 300gr SMK .338 bullet out of my 416 WBY at 3500 fps sounds awesome! Come on Sabot, I'm countin on you!

Or come awefully close to the 338 Win's 250g with a Whelen. Or the 300 Win's 180g with a 338-06, etc. The 358 Norma could come awefully close to factory 338 RUM with a 250g.
Suddenly, the 270 WCF doubles as the 257 Weatherby, the '06 becomes the 7mm Remington....

Of course, I'll withhold judgment till I see some more published data, but it is intriguing.
What are the sabots made of?

[ 10-15-2003, 14:34: Message edited by: Bwana-be ]

This fits right in with all of the experimenting that we seem to enjoy. Bring it on.

Fellow shooters -

Thanks for the encouragement. You have reminded me that i need a core group of independent testers to make the product credible. Dantec has already offered to cut custom chambers and share the design. Long pole in the tent is some assurance from BATF that they won't find the product unacceptable from a forensic perspective right when it gets geared up.

I do have an internal ballistics model calibrated for sabots that has been .999% accurate so far, so if you have any caliber/case combos you want run for velocity, energy and recoil, send them on.

Remember that if you start with a given cartridge, and shoot a lighter bullet in a sabot out of it the gain is really in sectional density, not energy. So the 416 WM above will push a 300 grain bullet around 3150 fps whether it is .416 or .338 diameter. However, the .338 bullet has a SD of .412 and at 3150 fps is OFF the charts! Lets just say it beats the 50 BMG at 1000 yards and leave it at that.

Now, if you open the 416 WM to .500 and THEN shoot a 300 gr 338 out of it in a sabot, you will do 3500 fps.

I think the market for this would go through the roof if it were successful in standard chambers.
If you have to talk someone into a custom chamber, then be stuck with these saboted bullets, you might not get far methinks.

3150 fps I can deal with. My brother will be happy with his 36" barrel 500 Jeffery Ruger #1 used to shoot the 750gr A-Max. 3500 fps , wait till he hears that!!

Do you have a rough idea of how long until we get some?

Sabot, do You have a time frame for getting the sabots available for use by your Testing Team (us)?

I for one am very interested.

Ray

This sounds like an EXTREMELY interesting idea. Count me in if you are able to sell any (or trade them to friends, if that is more bureaucratically palatable to the authorities ). I would be especially interested in being able to go with lighter bullets in some of the large bores while still maintaining good terminal performance and a flattened trajectory. This would allow one rifle to be used for plains game and dangerous game with just the switch of ammo while still using an optimum bullet for both. Great concept!!!!

If you have any info to share I would be very appreciative.

Jim

[ 10-16-2003, 05:36: Message edited by: mbogo375 ]

Thanks everyone for your enthusiasm. Been feeling like the Lone Ranger for quite a few years. Even fished the idea to Hornady three years back, but they just cited the Remington experience with the 224 Accelerator product and begged off.

They don't understand that a 22 cal bullet in a .308 sabot is about as bad an idea as one can come up with and even those work OK (sort of) in some rifles.

1. The sabot is too thick: The thinner the sabot the better the accuracy.

2. The bullet is too light for the bore. NO ONE makes a powder that works well with a 55 gr .308 projectile in a 22 inch barrel...pressure falls like a rock and velocity variations are hudge.

3. The bases of the sabots are too thick: they take up too much powder space and place the base of the bullet too close to the case mouth.

The market is definitely for existing rifles and chambers. A lot can be done with sabot length to assure contact with the lands...remember that the ogive and bearing surface of the actual bullet are irrelevant in this application. Heck, even bullet shape is irrelevant...

I regularly fill 9MM Luger cases with lead and shoot them in .40/.452 muzzle loader sabots from my blackhawk in 45 Long Colt. They weigh 220 grains and do 1500 fps from the 4 and 5/8ths inch bbl.

I am probably 3 months away from a decision on some type of "testing" distribution. I just need to proceed carefully and honestly to make certain that I don't get a flat NO from BATF.

In the mean time, it would be helpful if someone could refer me to a listing of twist rates for the Big Bores, as those with fairly fast twist rates are the best candidates for stabilizing heavy smaller diameter bullets.

You mention thin is good, what would you consider good ratios? I'd be interested in 35/30 cal, and 45/375 cal.

Paul H. -

Well, with respect to ratios, there is some trade off when you get into materials...hardness, heat tolerance, flexibility, etc. For a nylon based sabot that can sell for 5 cents apiece I would recommend a ratio of sabot to bulolet diameter of less than 1.25. Both of your examples fit this requirement.

Just be sure the twist rate in the barrel is sufficient for the actual bullet placed in the sabot. For example, a 45/70 won't be as flexible as a 458 Win Mag, because the twist rate in the 45/70 will not stabilize even 210 gr .375 bullets.