Since we're in mid winter I thought I would share the story of a rifle.

In 1982, I decided to have a light weight mountain rifle made up. While at the Crossroads of the West gunshow at the Salt Lake City, Salt Palace Convention Center, I ran across a gunsmith out of Janesville, CA. I can't remember his name but I think the company was RWS Precision?...if anyone remembers them. The rifle was built on a Rem 700 ADL action with a factory 22" barrel in 30-06. It was turned down to .550" at muzzle then a year later sent off to Mag-na-port to reduce the upward recoil. Worked very well by the way. The action and bolt had plenty of metal removed. The factory trigger was tuned to 3-crisp lbs. A Pachmyer Decelerator pad was placed af the rear. An M8 4x Leupold scope was placed in Conetrol 2-pc bases and rings. The entire rifle, sans the bolt and trigger was painted in a pinebough finish of my liking. Entire rig ran 6lb 7oz.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Rem700right.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Rem700fullrightprofile.jpg
Carried like a dream shot "ok". It also served faithfully from the East coast to Alaska....and Montana....
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Scan1983CutoffMtn.jpg

This past summer, 2006, I decided the barrel was finally shot out. I sent if off to Dan Lilja and had him duplicate the contour but in a 26" stainless 30 cal version. Then I had Ian Jenson, gunsmith for Barnes Bullets, chamber, thread, crown and mount the new barrel to my old action. He also replaced the factory firing pin/spring with a Tubbs version.

The old, rockhard recoil pad was replaced with the same version.

My wife, bless her transplanted kidney and pancreas, bought me a Nikon 4.5-14-40 Buckmaster scope. It sits too far back in the old Conetrol rings and bases. Keeps hittin me between the eyes.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Nikon4.jpg
So I put on a Ken Farrell alum picatinny base and used TPS alum medium rings for more adjustability.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Rightside4.jpg

It now weights 7lb 4 oz.

To start off, I fireformed new Win brass with COW. I ran two ladder loads with Nosler 180 BTs and Speer 180 Spt Hot Cores over Reloader 25. All the data was supplied to me by Ackley Improved User of this board. He suggested the Nosler and Rel 25 combo. Last month, I was able to get out a couple of mornings when the wind wad dead calm to only 2 mph from my six. Butt cold!...but that allowed the barrel to cool faster. The ladders worked well! I settled on the two following loads.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/180BTRel2568.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Speer180SptRel2569.jpg

I think all I have left to do is play with the seating depth to see if their is a sweeter spot. I also want to take the same data and try the Nosler AB and PT. Both are very similar to the BT and Hot Core in form and bc.

Then all I have left to do is learn to shoot this thing way out yonder.

Hello Big Al. First, I think you would be better served with a faster burning powder. What did the chrony read on these loads? The slowest powder I have had luck with is RL22, however, IMR 4064 gives me the highest speeds with best groups. Good luck and regards, Rick.

Hey Rick,

I appreciate your advice. If you perform a search on this site for "Ackley Improved User" and a few by myself, you'll see that we're both using heavily compressed loads of Rel 25 EXTREMLY successfully in the 30-06 Ackley. Were both hitting 3000 to 3100 fps with 69-71.g gr charges of R25. To answer your question, if you look at the two final photos, you will see that the Nosler 180 load ran an average of 3034 fps and the Speer Hot Core ran 3045 fps. Here is a little treatsie I put together to explain the idea.

The following is a set of reloading options and techniques which, take it or leave it, is outside the normal thinking when it comes to reloading. I was turned onto this idea by “Ackley Improved Userâ€. As first, like many, I was skeptical and unbelieving. With an open mind, questions to the right people, research and actual testing, it worked for me. Your mileage may vary. (YMMV)

After more than 30 years of shooting the 30-06 in 22†barrels, I wanted more velocity but without too much hassle or changing calibers. The 30-06 Ackley Improved seems the ticket….for me! Since I was going to start with a new barrel (my Rem 700’s was shot out) and it is impossible to add barrel length, I started with a 26†stainless steel barrel by Dan Lilja of Plains, MT. It has a 1:11 twist, which Dan assures me, will handle up to 200 grain bullets and has 3-grooves instead of the more traditional 5 or 6 grooves. I had Ian Jensen of American Fork, Utah, chamber, thread, crown and install my barrel into my 1982 Rem 700 long action, which had had a 22†30-06 Mag-na-ported barrel. By the way, Ian is the gunsmith for Barnes Bullets! With that old 22†barrel, the fastest 180 grain load I ever put together was 2750 fps. It had worked for years on numerous elk, deer and antelope, but I wanted MORE!

The concept is to use more powder in the case. Gee, what’s so new about that? But, there is a “’nuff room†issue; as in their isn’t enough of it. Well, the Ackley improvement adds a bit. My 30-06 Winchester cases add 4 grains of water after they had been fire formed to the Ackley. So, theirs a bit more powder! But then, many people have done the 30-06 Ackley improvement and not hit 3100 fps with 180 grain bullets in 26†barrels; have they?

The trick is slow powder, or should I say a powder which is slower than those traditionally used powders. Traditional powders like H414, W760 and WXR, the N*50/*60 series, the 4350’s, Reloader 19 and 22, Ramshot Hunter, AA 3100, Norma MRP and the 4831 series. Don’t get me wrong, some of these powders are very good. Nosler notes how in the standard 30-06, 61 grains of Reloader 22 pushes a 180 grain bullet to 2872 fps and 62 grains of Reloader 22 pushes the same 180 grain bullet to 2985 fps in the Ackley Improved version; both in a 24†Lilja barrel with 1:10 twist. Makes me wonder if Lilja barrels are fast.

The powders I’m talking about are Reloader 25, Magnum, IMR 7828/ssc, H1000, N165, N170. Tradionally, these are magnum powders. Hey, if we’re talking about pushing a 180 bullet at 3000-3100 fps, we are talking magnum territory; albeit, the lower end of magnum territory.

I’m going to talk about Reloader 25 as this is “the†powder for my ’06 Ackley. There is no loading data available for the 30-06 Ackley, at least none that I know of. AIU gave me a bunch of his data. I believe he derived it from Quick Load, and then tested it himself. From there, I tested some!

If you look in most reloading manuals, the traditionally slow powders are usually compressed loads. There are differing opinions on whether or not compression is good or bad. I’m not going into that here. The reloading manuals compress “a little†compared to what I’m going to talk about.

I’m talking about putting up to 70-71 grains of Reloader 25 into a 30-06 Ackley case; right up to the top of the neck. Again, I really balked at this in the beginning. I’d read an article by Rick Jamison in an early 2005 issue of Shooting Times. In it he brings to light the, then new, IMR 7828ssc. He says that if one wants to increase velocity, one needs to increase the powder charge weight. To do that the neat new thing about the super short cut version of IMR 7828 is that you get more into a case. He was able to get about 4 more grains of it into a 22-250 case. When used with heavy bullets the velocities can climb.
“Ok†thought I! More powder gets more speed but what about all that compression and will it hurt something?

I called Hodgdon and talked to a tech. Without mentioning any cartridge specifics I asked some questions. I did this because I didn’t want any standard answers coming my way without him actually thinking about the question. I asked about the best way to increase velocity. “Increase the powder charge†was his response. I asked if the new shorter cut propellants allowed this. “Yes†he said. I then went on to ask about compressing powders and any inherent problems associated with it. He said the only problems he could think of, besides the naturally increased pressure issue surrounding powders which are quicker burning combined with the inherent danger of putting to much quick burning powder into a case, was the damage induced to the powder grain due to drastic compression. I asked what he meant by drastic compression. He said that when a person takes something akin to a wooden dowel and begins to bang and crush the powder to get it to compress, they can damage some grains, which can subsequently change the burn dynamics and alter the interior ballistics. I gave an example where I would slowly fill a case ½ way up the neck or all the way to the top of the neck, via slowly trickling through a long drop tube and use “normal†bullet seating, would that “damage†the grain structure. He thought for a moment and said “no, it should be fineâ€.

The one problem I have encountered thus far while compressing the powder is accurate bullet seating to a specified OAL difficult. Added/decreased pressure from the seating stem/cup is needed and varies as powder increased/decreases.

I have run some 300 yd groups running in the 3â€-5†range and sub MOA groups at 100 yds.

GSSP, all you and I have done is duplicate what Hornady (light magnum ammo) and Federal (high energy ammo) have done. These companies marketed this high-energy ammo as soon as they developed a high thru-put, cost effective process for getting gobbs of slow-burning powder into the cartridge case and bullet compressed on top of it (in other words, they came up with a profitable manufacturing system). Moreover, on this forum M98 shows ballistic lab data proving the theory - that is, he obtains maximum velocities with the slowest burning powders of MRP, WXR, and Re22. I wish he'd try some Re25, I bet he'd surpass 2900 fps/180 NPT/24" barrel and stay under 65,000 PSI.

In fact, I'm surprised other reloaders have not gottin' on the band wagon long ago. The technique is very easy and does not take "heroic" measures to get the powder into the case. It takes me roughly the same time to reload 50 rounds as any other 50 rounds - I hand measure each charge for all my reloads. And, those 50 rounds could last a lifetime - these are big-game hunting only loads. One round one elk, etc.

The technique turns the '06 into an extremely efficient cartridge, and with modern range finders and premium bullets, no bigger cartridge is needed to hunt North American big game. I wouldn't hesitate to use my '06 AI on grizzly bear when loaded with a 200 gr. NPT moving at ~2950 fps.

Happy shooting and hunting, AIU

AIU,

"Happy Shooting" was the name of the game today.

After receiving my new Tactical Precision Sys low alum rings this past week, I went back out this morning to a calm, clear and very comfortable 30' F this morning for a seating depth test. Dummy me, used some unproven 30-06 loads to adjust my 300 yd zero; ended wasting too much time. Subsequently went to the "good" stuff and BAM! Next adustment put me where I needed to be. Started out with my standard .005" into the lands and worked out .005" at a time to .015" off the lands. The last was good enough to shoot another group before having to pack up. Here they are.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/SeatingDepthTestNos180BTRel25.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/3.jpg

Dan Lilja put together a very good barrel and YOU, SIR, pointed me in the right direction. Thank you VERY MUCH!

For the people reading this, "slower" than normal powders will get you the velocity you want, if you want it and are willing to "think and act out side the box".

For those who are curious, the Win brass I was using had anywhere from .0005" to .0015" neck thickness variation. My TIR ran .002" to .0045" for those last 6 shots.

GSSP, that's very nice shooting for 300 yds. Looks like you found the load! Great velocity and very accurate. Regards, AIU

GSSP, Very glad to hear your 06 AI is up and running. Also appreciate the indepth on the loads and techniques you are using. As you continue with the seating depth search I would mention that my 06 AI has two nodes which it likes and the difference is about .035 to .040 in COL. I may just try some of the 7828 SSC when I get back east.

Continued good luck and good shooting.

308Sako,

The "reloader" in me wants to keep tinkering with different powders and bullets and seating depths just incase their are other loads which would match or beat what I've got so far. The other part of me is "no, don't waste your barrel life. Just shoot it as is!"

What ever I do, it's now time to start building a drop chart for long range and figure out this whole "clicks for MOA" thing. Sounds fun!

AIU! Any other suggested loads for my baby? Say a Nosler 180 Partition? How temp sensitive have you found Reloader 25? Lot to lot variations? Instead of a seating depth test, maybe a primer test?

GSSP,

Looks like you’ve got your cold weather 180 gr. load - I believe you're max'ed out (i.e., 3050 fps at ~65,000 PSI). There's not much more you're going squeeze out of the '06 AI with the 180 gr. Bullets. I'd suggest backing off a grain for warm weather hunting. All powders, in my experience, will "speed up" as the temperature rises - that is, you're not going to change MOTHER NATURE and she ALWAYS says, "as temperature goes up chemical reaction rates increase." Re25 is like all other powders, and you'll be able to get more velocity with less powder at 72oF vs. 32oF. Thus, work up the same combination at 72oF this summer. For lot-to-lot problems, I haven't noticed them, but I buy 10# at a time, which should last a lifetime.

Now that you have your elk load you might want to work up an antelope load – e.g. 150 gr bullet. But, with 150's you'll need to go to a faster burning powder. I'd suggest Re19, W760, IMR4350, VvN560 or VvN550. I've worked up loads with W760, VvN560, and Vv550. With that 26†barreled ’06 AI, 3300 fps is very feasible with PSIs remaining at ~65,000 PSI range. I start with VvN560 - relatively slow but a bit faster than Re22 and VERY HIGH load density - you can get 72 grs in the '06 AI case.

Again, for North American big game, I'd stay with Nosler NBTs or Accubonds. Work up the loads with NBTs and hunt with Accubonds, although NBTs work great on big game too. When placed into the boiler room, NBTs kill instantly in my experience. Both 150s and 180s work great on deer.

With the exception of H870, I’ve noticed very little difference in performance between magnum and standard primers. I suggest using bench rest quality primers to help insure uniformity.

Finally, with these magnum-level loads you’ll wear out that barrel sooner than with standard ’06 loads – thus, I suggest take it easy, shooting them only before hunting season and only on a cold barrel.


Happy and safe shooting, Regards, AIU

On the 150 grain topic, Win 760 was tops for velocity in mine, and the 150 Partition performed extrordinarily well. Velocity was 3100 ft/secs, but youwill beat that by 100 with your longer barrel.

Another update!

Two days ago, a friend from Cali was out and he wanted to go shooting. We went out to my normal spot, got a late start, and some guys in a truck were already there. Ran up the road further and found a broad valley. Set up the portable shade as it was 93-95 degrees, windy, sunny and dusty. We set up a 100 yd target and checked my zero; 1/4" right in a 6 mph 3'oclock wind. EXBAL said that was on.

We then set my 25" x 15" LV steel siluette gong. Got back to the shade and made ready to shoot. The sun was so bright I had a hard time ranging the steel with my Swaro 8x30 Laserguide. So I settled on a decent sized PJ tree which was closer and to the left about 75 yds. It bounced back 785. We guessed the steel was about 15 yds farther, so 800. I ran the numbers in EXBAL cranked 15.75 MOA and IIRC, 3 MOA wind for a 6 mph from my 9. At the shot, my buddy, looking through the spotting scope said I was just under. I reran EXBAL for 800 yds and 16.5 MOA drop. BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!!. A 4.25" group at what we later successfully lazered at 818 yds.

818 yds 3-shot 4.25" group
818 yd 4.25" group

Dismiss the date on the photo. As I was turning the camera on, I realized it had no batteries and thus the camera reset the date to 20020101. Trust me, I'd not be wearing shorts, light hikers and a polynesian shirt in January at 5024' in Utah.

After that the steady 9 o'clock wind picked up to 20+ mph gusts and kept swinging from 4pm to 8 pm wind. I'd get my wind adjusted and by the time I shot, the wind went the other way. I learned a steady strong directional wind is better than a mild swinging wind.

I wanted to just say for nay sayers, my skinny barrel seems to do just fine. It keeps my rifles weight to 8lb and much of that is my IOR 3-18x42mm at 29 oz and big 35mm rings. Their web site says 22 oz but it is off. I've informed them but still no change. In talking to Dan Lilja, he says as long as the barrel is properly stress relieved, no problems!

Gee, and people acused me of being a liar (or crazy) for claiming 3180fps from the original, unimproved 30-06 by using a heavily compressed charge of RL22 in a neck sized case.

I KNOW it's not possible to fit too much RL22 into an '06 case behind a 165gr bullet, Infact in a standard '30-06 case it's not possible to fit too much RL22 behind a 180gr bullet EITHER, and I simply don't believe that RL25 would work better than RL22 in an Ackley Improved case
FWIW the #5 Nosler handbook shows 2985fps from a 30-06Ackley with 62.0grs of RL22, and those loads are based on SAAMI for unimproved '06, simply loading to the higher pressures would make up the small difference in velocity without resorting to RL25, which IMO only generate more flash and blast...

So what exactly is that extra 7gr of propellant doing for you aside from the besides flash and blast? a whopping 65fps?

Even if you get 3100fps MV that's still only a 115fps improvement over what the nosler manual says you can do at LOWER PRESSURE with RL22...
So if there is a point buried in your idea I'm failing to see it...

Though I will comment that my previous experience with a magnaported rifle indicates that the ports "work better" with slower powders that generate a lot of flash in a non ported barrel, though less muzzle rise doesn't equate to tighter groups, atleast not that I've been able to demonstrate.

Allan,

I'm not sure how to take your post. I'm not sure if you're attacking me, Saying "why bother" or saying "be careful". Their might even be someother thing which I've totally missed.

That 3180 fps you mentioned, is that a 180 gr bullet?

I've yet to try Rel 22, at least in the Ackley. I have in the standard 30-06 and it didn't give me the velocity I was looking for from my 22" Mag-na-ported barrel. I have purchased some new Rel 22 and will be testing it out this Fall/Winter when the temps cool off. I know Ackley Improved User has tested the Rel 22 and 3141 fps with 67 grs; that was too hot though he said. 66 gr was his max.

I've been thinking on doing this same kind of experiment with my 338-06AI using the 210 Nosler and the 225 Hornady interbond. I believe that R22 would be the powder to try, but could R25 work even better in this application?

One more thing - do you do all the compression by bullet seating, or do you compress in stages as the powder is added or as a separate step before seating? I know that loading black powder in my 45-70 or 45 Colt requires you to compress the powder as a separate step. The bullet seating step can not handle compressing the powder the full amount, so you have to precompress it.

Cpt,

It's all by bullet seating. I weigh out the charge and slowly trickle the powder from the charge pan in through a Forster 8" funnel/drop tube. I get about 1/2 to 3/4 the way up the neck, depending upon how patient I am getting the powder in. I then seat as normal. Normal is a misnomer here as the extra compression will mess with your OAL consistency. I use a Hornady (Stoney Point) OAL device, measuring to the ogive. I use the Forster Ultra seater die and end up really setting the top waaay down. I call it good when I can get +/- .004 within my target OAL measurement. You can see the results in the link to the 818 yd shots.

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
Allan,

I'm not sure how to take your post. I'm not sure if you're attacking me, Saying "why bother" or saying "be careful". Their might even be someother thing which I've totally missed.

That 3180 fps you mentioned, is that a 180 gr bullet?

I've yet to try Rel 22, at least in the Ackley. I have in the standard 30-06 and it didn't give me the velocity I was looking for from my 22" Mag-na-ported barrel. I have purchased some new Rel 22 and will be testing it out this Fall/Winter when the temps cool off. I know Ackley Improved User has tested the Rel 22 and 3141 fps with 67 grs; that was too hot though he said. 66 gr was his max.

I'm saying several things, but none of them should be considered an "attack"

There is a contradiction in the idea that RL25 would work in the "improved" '06 when if RL22 is already borderline on "too slow" then RL25 is definatly too slow.

3)The 3180 I claimed (chrono'ed repeatedly in three different barrels) from a standard '06
was called "bullshit" by some and "crazy" by several others and that was with a 165gr bullet, NOT a 180.

Frankly, 3100 with a 180gr is really pushing things (be careful) and actually more than you should have expected to achieve (and expect people outside the wildcat forum to use disparaging terms to describe you) with any propellant.

as someone else says (often): "velocity itself is a pressure sign"

4) it's tedious to cram 69grains of anything into a 30-06 case improved or not, several grains less of a faster propellant should be somewhat easier.

I'm not sure if the whole idea of ultra compressed loads is your idea or someone else's idea that you are quoting, but I am saying that I'm not buying into it, too slow is too slow.
regardless of how it's compressed.

So I'm not saying "be careful" because the very worst that can happen is you discover that you are wasting your own time (and a lot of propellant that could be used in other cartridges) when you discover it doesn't work as you were told it would.
Though I have to counterbalance that with saying that when you conduct an expirement and everything works exactly the way you expect you learn nothing.
It's when things don't go as expected that you learn something. I could be wrong, but...

I do suspect that anything missed at close range with one of my max loads of RL22 behind a 165gr will still kill the target if only by the third degree burns caused by the fireball (LOL)

I can only imagine the even bigger and brighter flash from RL25 Seriously, try some RL22.

AD

Allan,

Everything GSSP reports coincides with my experience (also that of Quick Load and others posting on the Board using this approach). 3050 fps with 180 gr. bullets is fairly easy with the '06 AI using a 26" barrel (Oehler 35 three-screen chronograph). On warm days the velocities approach 3100 fps. I use 70 grs. of Re25, and it's not that hard to get into the case. I like Lapua brass, and Re25 compresses quite well. The brass reloads multiple times with this load.

Re22, WXR, and MRP are also good powders with 180s, but pressure signs develop at somewhat slower velocites (~3000 fps). For me, 165s match best with Re22. I get ~3200 fps safely, before pressure signs develop at 3250 fps and above.

Both of these loads are magnificient hunting loads - 20 rounds will last a long time.

The same approach works with the big mags, but even with these slow burners, the big mags (i.e., my 300 Win Mag) remain a bit over bore. I can't wait to get my hands on some of the new VvN570, which should be available in the USA next year. It's supposed to be "H870" with an attitude.

Warm regards and happy shooting, AIU

AIU,

I got it!

Interesting suff indeed...has anyone tried this with the 25-06???

Yes, I've got a 25-06 AI and use Re25 with 115 gr NBTs and NPTs. Very good results, but the 25-06 AI is considerably overbore and a slower high energy powder would be nice. I'm waiting for the VvN570, which might be the ticket. Retumbo is very little improvement over Re25. H870 is good, but doesn't seem to have the same energy content as Re25.

This 1000 yd group was shot 2 days ago at the new North Springs shooting facility 15 minutes south of Price, Utah. http://www.carboncountyutah.com/north_spring/index.htm

The brass was on it's 5th reload.

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