My old eyes, and my old Starret calipers say 3.30".

One of these days I'm going to have to get one of those newfangled dial calipers, but with a magnifying glass, I can still read my old one I've had over 30 years.

KB

For what it's worth. Both the smaller case and shorter OAL go against you. New run calls 59.2gr max at 63800 66grs would be around 76,000.

As to H & IMR4895. Every chart I've seen shows Imr as one spot above H4895. Years ago I switched from H4895 to IMR 4895 and the loads were all within .5gr of each other. I've had that much variation between batches of powder.

Well, we learn something new all the time.

I'll take that into consideration. I'm surprised because I always figured that kind of pressure would result in some evidence, primarily heavy bolt lift, and especially flat primers.

I'm going to research this further. I'm also surprised that your results show such a low charge, compared to that which is acceptable in the 358 N, using 225gr bullets.

I found a load for the 375x338 or 375 Taylor using 68 grs I4895 pushing a 270 gr bullet. This is on the 416 Taylor web page link. I'll check this - but as I remember, I found a load in the speer manual for the 358N, 250 gr bullets, I4895 within 2 or 3 grains of my top load. Likewise for the 9.3x64 in another reliable manual - but that's by memory. I'll check it.

KB

This thread piqued my interest a bit, as I have been contemplating turning my 300 WinMag into a 358 Norma or 358 STA.

Anyway, I took a quick look on the IMR and Hogdon website and found this for the 358 Norma...

quote:

250 GR. NOS PART 250 H4895 .358" 3.300" 61.0 2544 65.0 2736

Looks like they recommend up to 65gr of H4895 with the 250gr Nos Part. Seems odd a 9.3x338 would be overpressure with one more grain of powder and the same bullet weight.

Cheers,
Canuck

The 358 Norma has the advantage of being a standard cartridge and is powerful enough that one should not want for more from a .358 diameter bullet.

If I was to wildcat that bullet I'd certainly use the .375 Ruger case but expect the gains to be 150 at the most and inconsequential.

The disadvantage is that the .358 isn't suited for dangerous game even though it has the nuts for it.....and if it's relegated to big game one soon discovers that it's quite a bit more than required and that the 338 Win Mag has all the bases covered nicely.

I have no problem with the 358 in any of it's many cases but in the end it's not truly useful.

Too big.....too small.....it's a caliber that can do it all.....but barred from the game!

quote:

Looks like they recommend up to 65gr of H4895 with the 250gr Nos Part.

First I just measured a 358 Norma case. The case is longer and the shoulder .045" forward and steeper than a 338. It held 93 grains of water. Loadtech calls it 93.8. It calculates a max load of 65.6 grs IMR 4895 at 2765 for a 250gr 358Norma. That is almost 11% greater case capacity than what he is measuring. If you look at Steves page http://stevespages.com/366_3_250.html he shows 64 grs ,max for 4895 in a 9.3x64 with a 250gr.
Loadtech is only one source and I would sure look to published 9.3x64 data before it. His case is only .5 grs shy of it. Due to the extra capacity of the 358 it is not an apple to apple.

quote:

That is almost 11% greater case capacity than what he is measuring.

That would certainly explain it. Just looking at drawings I wouldn't have imagined that big of a difference.

Thanks for the clarification.

Canuck

quote:

That would certainly explain it. Just looking at drawings I wouldn't have imagined that big of a difference.

It had me stumped as well. When I saw what Loadtech called the volume of the 358 I thought it was an error so I had to prove it to myself.

I'm finding all this very helpful. Folks should take note of this, because sometimes we assume too much, and that generally is a problem, but it can be especially so with handloads.

Paul, if I'm reading right you actually weighed the water capacity of the 358 Norma?

Perhaps I should reconsider the things I thought I knew about pressure signs. I thought I had that settled in my mind a long time ago, but maybe not. Perhaps there are others who have shot loads which produced the obvious signs of too much pressure, such as really flat primers, cratered primers, and sticky bolt lift, shiny spots on the case head. These are obvious signs to back off, pull the loads and don't shoot them anymore. I have done that a few times, not necessarily on purpose, and not in the last 10 - 15 years, but I really didn't think such a load was way over the top.

There have been times when I developed loads, with reference to published data, and just increased the charge a little at a time, until the accuracy began to fall off, and primers began to crater, then back off to the best accuracy load, that didn't show too much pressure. Mostly it's been with standard cartridges. I thought I was ready to advance to a wildcat. Maybe not.

This is the first time I have shot loads that didn't have the above excess pressure indicators, but are apparantly hot according to ramrods calculations. My question is, in this situation, with a strong Ruger action, tight chamber, etc, by the time the pressure signs are noticable, working up one grain at a time, is it true that such loads are really way over max, approaching 70,000 psi +?

Another way to ask the question: what indicators would one expect to see if a load using magnum brass was shot, and it produced over 70,000 psi?

This really has me worried a little. I remember developing a favorite load for my 35 Whelen. I tried lots of different powder. Being a short barrel, the fireball out the muzzle is an issue with some powder. Yes, I shot it at night out on the eastern Colorado, just to see which powder made the smallest fireball. I was having trouble with consistant accuracy too - tested in the daytime of course . The short story is that I settled on Winchester 748. I worked up to the maximum book charge, and still the accuracy was less than exected, with no signs of pressure problems. Bare in mind this is on a military mauser action, which requires a little extra caution. Anyway, I went up to 3 grains over book max, 1/2 grain at a time, and the accuracy got better with each increase. I finally just stopped at 3 grains over, with still no adverse signs of pressure, but the accuracy was and is excellent. This is the only rifle and caliber that I have ever done that with. Also, I have never shot that load on a hot day, and plan on avoiding that. It's fortunate that I live in Alaska perhaps, so I don't worry too much about hot days. Maybe I'm assuming too much with my favorite 35 Whelen loads too?

But, conversly, I have a 300 H&H which I can not get close to book Max loads without it showing pressure problems, and accuracy falls off. So, I'm happy to go with whatever it will produce.

Ramrod, I have another question. What does your calculation show for using RL 15 in my 366 wildcat?

Thanks,
KB

KB
Yes I weighed the water capacity of a 358Norma case.

Like I said the Loadtech info is only 1 data point. I sure would believe posted load data for the 9.3x64 before I would believe it. Some of it's data is real close some isn't.

Like you I have some rifles that are loaded 2-3 grs beyond book max some 2-3 grains under. There are way to many variables. Each lot of powder is a little different, primers are different, brass manufactures, even lot of brass from same manufacture, chamber size, barrel ID. All effect the pressure and the signs you see.

Back when I was doing a lot of testing often I would see signs start to show over a range of 7-10,000psi. I had one lot of RP brass that showed signs at 73,000 that an earlier bunch had shown at 67,000. I've had loads that showed no sign at all and the .5gr increase blew the primer. I've had brass that expanded over .0005 and showed no other signs. When you start seeing pressure you have had it awhile.

When I work up a load I start watching for the normal signs. I measure each head before and after firing. I measure the velocity gain between each load. Looking for any changes. If you have loading manuals with your round great. If not you do the best you can.

The short answer is yes I have had loads that showed NO OUTWARD signs of pressure and the strain guage said the load should be in the 73,-75,000PSI range. If you see signs then you have pressure, just because you don't see signs does not mean it isn't there.

Many around will talk about not liking Norma brass because it is too soft and they don't get many loading. Norma 280 from 2 lots is the only brass I use for my PDK wildcats. What I found after 1000s of rounds of testing in various calibers is that I would 99% of the time get .0005" head expansion someplace between 65-70,000. So I measure each head when I get .0005 I drop back and record that as max. Could I maybe use a harder case and load to 70,000+ with no sign and maybe get an extra 15fps? Sure but to me it just isn't worth it. If I can't get what I want at 65,000 or below I get a bigger case.

Loadtech shows 67 grains of RL15 and 64.5 gfs of Varget.

Some 9.3x64 data here:
http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/page15.htm

I have a .338 win, and a whelen.
looking at a few manuals I see about a 100 fps advantage , from the .358 norma over the .338 win.with 250 grain bullets , 100 feet of velocity is not much with a 100 grain bullet , but 100 feet with a 250 grain bullet makes for quite a bit of energy.
You might consider a wildcat .358 X.375 ruger.
I think the .358 STA would be an awsome round,
i would build one on my 7MM STW Model 70 if the STW was not a tack driver...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
looking at a few manuals I see about a 100 fps advantage , from the .358 norma over the .338 win.with 250 grain bullets , 100 feet of velocity with a 250 grain bullet makes for quite a bit of energy.
...tj3006

I'm expecting yet another 100 fps gain with the 9.3mm 250 gr bullet out of my wildcat. I'm also expecting the 9.3x338 with 250 gr Noslers to shoot as flat as the 338 or the 358 with 225 gr bullets, and to shoot 286 gr 9.3mm bullets the same speed as the 338 or 358 shoots their respective 250 gr bullets.

I'm really looking forward to confirming that with a chronograph, as soon as the snow clears enough to set up at the range.

Ramrod, yesterday I worked up to 67 grs of RL 15, behind the 270 gr speer 9.3mm. I didn't want to waste any more of my ballistic tips just blasting into the snow bank. Everything worked and looked OK - no problems. I think that RL 15 may be the choice powder, because of its burn rate and the load level in the case, which is just right, without compression. I would like to use IMR 4350, but it seems to fill the case too much, and will be compressed.

Yesterday, a friend showed me how a vibrator settles the powder in a case. I never thought of using a marital enhancement tool for reloading, but now that my wife left, perhaps there is a new life for the contraption, and maybe I can use 4350 after all. I'll try that later maybe.

KB

quote:

I never thought of using a marital enhancement tool for reloading,

I have used a BACK massager to settle the powder.

this is fireballs daughter with a reply for the use of marrital aides.
1) why did she leave it behind when she left, thought that would be one the most important things to take.
2) Saw this on a TV show but I'm told it really works. Place under a pillow with a baby on top of it and it will calm them down.
3) If the vibrating of a brass cleaner works why wouldn't it work.
4) What where you doing when you figured this one out?

We're really all here because we're not all there, and we're having fun now. Most people don't realize how much fun reloading can be, settling powder and such. Never know what one may learn on AR forums.

Ms Fireball's daughter,
I'm assuming you are a young lady, so I'm not going to answer your questions #2 & #4 above. As you will learn, there are times when the best use of words is to not use them, or if used - leave room for the reader's imagination to fill the void. It is entirely probable that imagination will be more entertaining for you and others than the actual answer, or something I could make up. Good questions though.

KB

For a 250 Nosler Partiton, try 75.5 gr. H4350.
2820 fps out of my 23" barreled Sako.

quote:

For a 250 Nosler Partiton, try 75.5 gr. H4350.
2820 fps out of my 23" barreled Sako

Is that a 358Norma or 9.3x64?

358 Norma, Resized &fireformed Winchester 338 brass, F215 primers.

quote:

358 Norma, Resized &fireformed Winchester 338 brass, F215 primers

Hmmm For what it's worth (not much) Loadtech calls that load with IMR4350 about .5grs shy of max and 2850. With H4350 it calls it about 3 grs shy 57000psi and 2740. At least it is in the ballpark

Paul-
For the record, I've probably chronographed this rifle at least 50 times over the years I've used it. I usually shoot a 225 Nosler Partition only because it's so accurate. I've tried Barnes Triple Shocks and blue bullets but they just don't shoot as well in this rifle.
With 225's, I get between 2930 and 2975 depending on lot of H4895 I've used. With 250's,
74 gr. of IMR 4350 is highly compressed and doesn't give the velocity of H4350. H4350 has slightly better loading density which makes all the difference in this application. 75.5 gr is a max load in my 23" Douglas barrel. I get about 2810 to 2825 depending on the temp.. With 280 Swifts, I've used 80 gr. of R 19 which rearranged my molars. Yikes, that's some serious recoil. Velocity was 2785 but with flattened primers and ejector marks but smooth extraction. I backed off down to 77 gr for right at 2700. Good, stout heavy bullet load, but still slightly compressed.
I've never used Quick Load or any other program. All I know is what has worked for me.
Good shooting.
SB Smith

SB

Chrono data is always far better than loading manuals or computer programs forcast. More than anything I was using your data to help see if Loadtech was at least in the ballpark for 358N and them maybe the 9.3 wildcat he is working on.

I have yet to handload for my 358. It is a 19" Mannlicher. I was in my hometown (also the home of Grafs) right after I bought it. They were closing out 250gr Woodleigh 358 Norma ammo for around $20 a box. That was about the cost of brass. I bought all they had left. Figured nothing else I would just pull it apart and use the components. Darn if the stuff didn't clock 2700 and give me a 2MOA group using the peep sites. So at 5-10 rds per year hog hunting it will be awhile before I reload for it.

I like the 358 STA. I am pushing a 250 grain North Fork at 2950fps with 86 grains of IMR 4831. There is room to push a little more if I wanted to but I am getting great accuracy and it is comfortable to shoot.

I have another load for a 310 Woodleigh that is going around 2500-2600 fps.

anyone of you tha thave a good load for the .358 NM with 310 grain woodleigh bullets and with the N 204 powder and Federal 215 primer.

I like the 358 NM good, got a rifle last year and i wil lsoon laoad bullets from 180 grain up too 310 grain to try out more varied load.

I have some bulk 200 grain remington corelokt s tha tshoot ok, and 225 grain Sierra GK, the best rifle load i had last year was 250 grain Nosler, but more premium bullets will be ordered soon like Barnes and Swift, and some more.

I have some 180 grain nosler Parttion HG tha tis for the .357 Magnum round, they will be fun to try in wet newspapers soon to test expansion on.

kabluewy, first of all, thanks for making my daughters day. secondly i did'nt think my thread would go this far.i'm outta action for the next year of shooting till the shoulders heel up. i still plan on a 358norma., just can't shoot it till next year. such is life i guess. later folks. I'll BE BACK! Dave

i saw on the Nosler forum that they will be offering .308 Norma brass this year, so perhaps brass in the .358 wil lbe avialble later, and perhaps ammo in them also.?

I have two Normas and a 350 Rem Mag as well. The 350 and my short barrelled 358 Norma have 16 twists. They stabalize 300 Barnes Originals with good accuracy.

My long barrelled 358 Norma has a 14 Twist Barrel and is somewhat more accurate but of course that may be due to the fact that it is a Douglas Premium.

Since the 14 twist doesn't hurt anything I'd go 14 if I was buying. As for the round the 358 Norma is magnificant. Hits very hard with recoil that is heavy but not completely ridiculous for prone use.

I use 65 grains of H4895 with 250 Nosler Partitions as a afvourite load. Kicks noticeably less than 75 grains of 4350 or RL19.
I use RL19 for 275 Barnes Original Loads in the 14 Twist for moose. 25" barrel will hit 2700ft/sec with no signs of excess pressure.

.358 Norma is an awesome cartridge and its load data I am using in my .35 Newton . The conversions of yester year of the old Dupont 15.5 and 17.5 are 3030 and 4064. I have all three, 35 Whelan,.358Norma and 358STA. Everything falls when hit with any of them. STA
requires a long action. I shoot the 225 Nosler
partition at 3100 and will say without brake one must not be faint of heart. The Simms pad
and the leupold scope are the only way I can comfortably stand to shoot mine off the bench.

I shoot the Newton from a handgun only.
Neal