Hi Folks.

It's me again!
(I am gathering information so as to make the best choice for myself, so .... )
I have this 26" .223 barrel which might be high-grade barrel steel. (The barrel would be 27" after the chamber is added).

The question now is hot-rodding the humble hornet. (Not the k-hornet).

I have made the observation that the standard hornet can outperform the k-hornet with Lil'Gun. This is due to some weird characteristics of that powder. So, what I am thinking is changing the shape of the hornet case to a near straight wall with a nozzle shape shoulder, so as to retain the shallow angle at the neck junction. I would move the shoulder forward only enough to bring the bullet base flush with the shoulder junction. The idea is to hold most of the bullet in the neck. The barrel throat would then be customized to suite one bullet design and seating depth. This chambering would go onto my No.4 action (I would machine a custom bolt head to suite), so pressure limits would be what the case can take - which is not that much! 50,000 CUP would be tops I would imagine. Thing is, Lil'Gun, being weird, can go from below max with a 55gr bullet to absolutely max with the same bullet seated 0.6mm deeper! (But no excess pressure signs on the case). Performance is phenomenal. The bullet crack is much sharper and muzzle lift becomes an issue in that I cannot see the bullet strike. OK, so, along those lines of thinking, I would expect to be able to drive a 50gr v-max to 3000fps. Now that would be a fun project!
Has anyone done something similar?

The .22 Hornet was originally the .22 WCF with black powder and a lead bullet. Probably did service of the like we expect from a .22 Long Rifle today. Mom defending the garden from squirrels, rabbits, and such...

There were Springfields chambered for target &/or training. I believe I read that Mr. Pope was employed to chamber with the chamber at an angle so the center fire firing pin would strike the rim if a rimfire.

These, loaded with smokeless or semi smokeless (they mixed smokeless with black powder) were the first Hornets.

50K CUP. I would stop below 40K myself. And the case is not rugged like todays brass made for 55K CUP. .223 and the like. .308. Etc.

As for moving the shoulder forward... just takes money. Specializing like this is a ton of fun but if you ever want to sell, you take it apart and try to sell parts...

Mr. Ackley's books go over all the things that were done to the Hornet pre 1985 or so. Your idea reminds me of the .25 Hornet. Looks like a minature .32/40, all slope. Your bucks, your call. Enjoy the dance. Shouldn't work the #4 too hard, but... Winchester came out with the "Bee" (.218) to outstrip it. Necked down .32/20 or .25/20 case. More recently and more stout, the .22 Jet was made on the .357 Mag case. I would lean that way, but you have to be happy. luck.

The problem is two fold. The thin brass restricts what you can do and how long it will last. And that small of a case makes powder charge consistancy much more important.

I tried a 218 mashburn once as an improved small cased 22 and it never quite lived up to what I wanted.

Far and away the best choice in a small 22 centerfire is the 221 rem fireball. Both a small enough case for quiet mild loads, and large enough to trounce the 22 hornet and any wildcats. Best of all is good brass. And in a single shot you can use 360 DW or 357 maximum brass for a rimmed 221 fireball.

quote:

... the .22 Jet was made on the .357 Mag case.

I didn't know that! I always wondered what the jet was about.

quote:

.... 357 maximum brass for a rimmed 221 fireball ....

Now there's an excellent idea! I had wondered about the 357 maximum. I must say 'though, although I have looked, I haven't seen any maximum brass on our shelves. But hey, I could order some. I guess the same goes for 30-40 Krag cases. I do see plenty of 30-30 cases (also 357 magnum cases). For a No.4 project, they would be just fine too. But I like the idea of the rimmed 221 fireball! But playing around with the hornet is still appealing!

quote:

... just takes money.

Ah ... but you see ... I would do all the work myself. That's the idea - use what I have which is a long 22lr barrel and a No.4 action which I like (and still has it's two-groove barrel - which I shall be testing soon, with 308 bullets). It seems unlikely that the barrel I have is anything more than low-carbon steel otherwise I would go for a 22-303 Improved - which should equal 22-250 performance at 303 pressure.

quote:

.... small of a case makes powder charge consistancy much more important.

That's another consideration

I am just wondering what ever happen to the .270 REN which was the .22 Hornet necked up to .277"??? Don't hear much about it anymore.

Was that a typo? I thought it was the 270 REN? I have only seen it on [I]Ammoguide Interactive/I]. a straight walled case. Wouldn't there be a problem getting suitable bullets for it?

Assuming the barrel I have is low carbon steel, will it take jacketed bullets at hornet velocity and pressure/heat? Another appealing option is the 22 Savage. Knowing the limitations of the barrel, and loading to milder pressure, it might last longer.

As I recall, the 22 hornet was originally built using 22 rf barrels, and fired 0.223" bullets, which is why there are still .223" and .224" component bullets. Most 22 centerfires are .224" across the lands, including current production 22 hornets.

At some point and time you'll wear out a 22 rf barrel shooting 22 hornets through it, but I expect you'll spend alot of $'s on powder, primers and bullets to get there.

As far as 357 based 22's, there are a few options. You can use the 22 rem jet which is a 35 mag necked down to 22. You can form 221 brass (PITA) from either 357 max brass and trim back to 1.4" from the 1.6" case, or you can use 360 Dan Wesson case, which is 1.4" and won't require as much trimming.

Another option would be to have a short necked 222. Neck the 1.6" 357 max brass down and trim to whatever length is needed to even out your brass. The up side is no expensive custom dies, though you'll need a form die or two.

With all that said and done, I think the 22 K-hornet makes the most sense. Reamers and dies shouldn't be hard to find nor cost an arm and a leg. The K-hornet makes for a case that will last for more loadings. I can't see how the std hornet can outperform a larger case (k-hornet) when opperating at the same pressures.

One last up side of the 221 f-ball is it opens up many more powders. You should be able to get fine performance with 1680, lil gun, H-110 and slower powders such as RL-7. In my daughters 221 f-ball I load the 50 v-max over rl-7 and it's a tack driver.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 303Guy:
Was that a typo? I thought it was the 270 REN? ]

It is REN. It performs fantastic with a suppresor. Very quiet!! Lots of thump! Considering the size!

quote:

... I can't see how the std hornet can outperform a larger case (k-hornet) when opperating at the same pressures ...

Lil'Gun is weird! It seems to produce higher pressure with less powder in a larger case. I seated a batch of bullets 0.6mm deeper by accident (sounds better than 'mistake'). The recoil was considerably more and the report quieter and sharper. But, ... the barrel stayed cooler! A lot cooler!!!

Take a look;
22 Hornet
55 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Lil'Gun .224" 12.0 2551 39,400 CUP 13.0 2652 42,900 CUP

22 K-Hornet (53gr bullet)
53 GR. BAR XFB Hodgdon Lil'Gun .224" 11.5 2552 38,700 CUP 12.3 2695 45,700 CUP

221 Fireball
55 GR. HDY SPSX Hodgdon Lil'Gun .224" 13.0 2714 45,200 CUP 14.5 2877 49,800 CUP


drewhenrytnt, what bullets do you use? I thought 270 bullets would be too strong for REN velocities. Is it actually sub-sonic? (If I pick up a 270 barrel one day I might just build myself one!)

quote:

... As far as 357 based 22's, there are a few options. You can use the 22 rem jet which is a 35 mag necked down to 22. You can form 221 brass (PITA) from either 357 max brass and trim back to 1.4" from the 1.6" case, ...

Or I could 'wildcat' and keep the 1.6". I would start by making a set of forming dies then when I have found the simplest arrangement, I would proceed to cut the chamber.

I was thinking it would take quite a few hornet rounds to shoot out a 22lr barrel. Maybe I should just fit the barrel to my Anschutz. It has rust damage and I have not been able to get one whole groups with it. It gets a bit frustrating when I miss stuff at 150m when I am sure the shot was true! (I suspect it has more to do with the throat than anything else).

I know somebody made a long necked 221 rimmed to use untrimmed 357 max brass. I think it was discussed on one of the forums hear, maybe the single shot forum, or handrifle forum.

On reflection...
#1). There were other cartridges with the same rim as Hornet but longer. I recall Jack O'Connor writing in Outdoor Life magazine about the .22/3000 on the .25/20 single shot case --long and thin, no shoulder like the Winchester .25/20 repeater. With much difficulty and money you might find them. They would not challange the length of a .303 SMLE magazine, but getting the small diameter to feed, luck...
#2). Mr. Mike Bellm, bellmtcs.com, works with another modern rimmed case, RWS I believe, European, 5.6x50mm and says that it approaches the .222 Magnum/almost .22/250 velocities without pressure excessive for T/C contenders. Again, fun to make feed in a SMLE IV.
#3). Mike also works with the .22 centerfires on the .357 Maximum case. Much info on his web site. Not aware of much about the .222 R on the .357 Max, although I believe there is a .222 Remington rimmed case made in Australia. Old West Scrounger, Huntingtons.com, ch4d.com sometimes have odd brass like that in USA.
#4). Mil surplus gun nut friend had a 6.5 Dutch Mannlicher rifle supposedly rechambered to .303 since they have the same rim diameter... ??? He fired it tied to a tire with mil surp ammo. I did not like the required stripper clips at all. Fired Case looked like the reamer went in at a bad angle, a REAL bad angle... Not sure what became of that beater. You have access to 6.5 Cases to neck down?
#5). In single shots you can have the extractor set up (by Mike anyway) to use either the rimmed or rimless version and since the .221 and .222 came be made from .223 mil surplus brass...
#6). .30/30, in USA, gave birth to a ton of cartridges. .219 Donaldson Wasp ruled the match range/benchrest for quite a time. .25/35 was a ladys rifle. Improved it almost reaches the .257 R. Many single shots were done for the .219 Zipper (full length case necked to .224 with lots of slope) or Zipper Improved with sharp shoulder... And the versions in 6mm were almost as accurate/popular. As I believe I said, the .225 WCF case is a close copy of the .219 Zip Improved so you could do most of these cartridges with the Mauser .473 diameter rim, semi rim actually. Supposedly more strength. Newer design. luck...

Thanks Folks, for all your valued input. It is of great help to me and a heap of fun!!!!

quote:

#5). In single shots you can have the extractor set up (by Mike anyway) to use either the rimmed or rimless version and since the .221 and .222 came be made from .223 mil surplus brass...

I had that idea in mind. The standard extractor does extract a rimless case but does not eject it. If I go for a smaller case diameter I will be sure to make it work on both. I shall have to check the gun shops to see what cases are available. They do carry 6.5 Swede cases. But looking at the possibilities, if I go for a smaller case capacity, I have the 30-30 that can be shortened very easily, for more capacity it can be 'improved'. If I go for a bigger case, I have the 303 than can be necked down as is or improved. I think I can get 25-20 cases, which could be necked down as is or improved very small capacity, hornet to 221 class if the barrel turns out to be low-carbon. Feeding small cases in the No.4 should not be a problem - it's ejecting them. I would have to install a spring-loaded ejector of the Mauser type. All do-able. The idea is not make any permanent mods to the action itself but to the bolt head and magazine. That is so I can switch barrels later on, thus having one rifle I shoot with all the time - so I can get real good with it! (But I will have difficulty leaving my Anschutz in the safe - what the hell. I will just make special trips for it!)

quote:

I know somebody made a long necked 221 rimmed to use untrimmed 357 max brass.

For some reason, I like a long neck. It gives me the idea that the bullet is well seated - which is true when I seat the hornet bullets without neck-sizing (in a paper cup). It also allows for a cardboard wad under the bullet (of unproven value but again it gives me the idea I can play around with things like lubing the bore - lube between two wads).

"lube between two wads..." !!

Now where would you get that concept. Don't suppose you have been fooling with .303? I wasn't aware of the practice until I pulled the bullet (with some difficulty, lots of asphalt) from a .303 to see the cordite... CF:::

Harvey Donaldson, inventor of the Donaldson Wasp and competition shooter wrote of buying one of the first .220 Swifts, a model 54 Winchester, pre model 70 and shooting it with home made bullets (he was a machinist) and under the bullets a wax wad using "japan wax" --don't suppose you have any of that around???-- and having acceptable accuracy after 10,000 rounds... 1930s steel barrel chambered in .220 Swift --hot, hot, hot-- and still acceptably accurate after 10K shots...

The few who claimed to have known him said he like to talk, big talk,.. I can only wonder. The practice of a hydralic lube from something that will melt during the firing process is documented. 10K thru a Swift? Something else for you to research... ENJOY.

That is interesting!. Thanks iiranger. I was indeed aware of the 303 with its cardboard wad, sealed in asphalt. But the idea came from trying to seal and hold a bullet in an un-sized hornet neck. Knowing about the 303 motivated me to try it. I ended up with a paper hand towel cup in place of the wad, sealed in 'waxy-lube', which is a mixture of candle wax and bullet lube. It forms quite a strong seal and bond when soaked, molten, into the paper cup, between the bullet and case mouth. I have tried lube between the bullet and the wad but this causes the wad to stick to the bullet. That I don't mind but how do I know it always stays in place out to 200 meters? So I thought of separating the bullet from the lube with another wad. You can see how much fun I am having!

I should mention, I get zero copper fouling with the waxy-lubed paper cup. Usually the bore remains clean and shiny but it has fouled up with carbon and other crud - including copper particles. I monitored this bore daily then weekly and so on until I don't monitor it anymore. It never rusts! (I don't clean it either! Well, if I think there is a possibility of moisture getting in - like after a hunt in the rain, I will run a patch soaked with Rapid-Tap cutting fluid through the bore followed by dry patch and that's it. Great stuff that Rapid-Tap. It cleans and protects against rust).

10K thru a Swift? Holy Cow! I thought I might be onto something but 10K thru a Swift! Hey, maybe this barrel of mine will work after all! Anyway - that's what I want a long neck for.

Ummmm .... This Harvey Donaldson fellow .... he must have been a pretty bright guy!

I just thought of something. The 'japan waxed' wad (I don't have any) might have done a little more than lube that Swift barrel - it may have sealed the bullet from leaking hot gases, which protected the bore from flame erosion. Who can say whether or not flame erosion takes place between the bullet and bore or not? There's a thought!