Anybody want a 500 NE in a Marlin Guide Gun?
I have no plans of doing this, but I was just thinking about the 450 Marlin, and wondered if anyone had done the same sort of thing with the Weatherby case.
You could make it fairly straight, cut at 2.2", below the shoulder on the 378 case, water capacity of about 106g.
Anyone want to run QuickLoad on this sucker at 2.65" COL and 40k psi with a .510" 570g FPGC, length of 1.75"?
Might come close to the old 500 NE.
The other question is: would the casehead fit in the Marlin....
As for what it's for, well, I'll leave that up to the guy that puts one together.

Give John Rick's a call. If my memory serves me right, He built some cannon with a .500 bore that was pretty impressive. He designed the cartridge and built the gun around it.

His web site is http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/

Of course there is the .500 Alaskan and a .510 kodiak express both with no belt.

The case head will probably fit. The problem if any will be that the case is too big for the action. Barrel wall thickness may be too thin at the junction of the threads and the action. I know of one smith building 50 alaskans who uses tapered threads for this very reason. The 460 case is larger than the 50 ak case.

The best platform for such a cartridge is the 86 winchester.

Also Kev is getting 2250 fps with 525 grain bullets out of a modern 86 winchester converted to 50/110 by Dave Clay.

Dave is also necking the 50/110 down to .458, the so called 450/110 is matching the .458 Win out in a handy 40 inch rifle with a 22 inch barrel.

[ 10-08-2003, 20:49: Message edited by: jnc91 ]

I built a 50 on a Marlin, uses stretched 348 brass, longer cartridge and more powder capacity than the 50 Alaskan. Over 5000 ft/lbs. Fun gun to shoot!! Photos below. Cartridge is called the 50 Express.





And here are some 458 and 50 cal. cartridges, with a 348 case thrown in. 45/70 on left, 348 case, 50 Express with 450 Barnes, 50 Express with 535 Woodleigh, 458 Win with hard cast bullet, 50 Express case holding a 458 Win case, 458 Lott, 500 Nitro. The 50 Express has a lot of powder capacity due to the large case diameter.



Would not do it again, just too much work to make the small Marlin handle the cartridge.

Have another project on back burner, will be working on it soon. Using a model 71 Browning and 500 Nitro Express brass. Looking for over 6000 ft/lbs in this one.

Any way you go, it gets expensive, lots of custom machining, custom reamers, case forming dies, etc. Don't get into a project like this unless you are willing to spend a bunch of money.

A big note, you gotta be careful with the lever guns and pressures. Most folks say the late Marlins and the M71 Browning will take 43,000 psi. I do not have a reliable source for this info, so be careful. And some of the high velocites quoted for the various 50's on lever guns are running at 50,000 or more psi, just not safe in a rear lock up lever gun with a weak design receiver. Those big cases at high pressures generate a lot of back force due to the big internal area of the rear of the case. PSI times area equals back thrust on the lugs!!!! No one is pressure testing the high velocity loads. I used a M43 for pressure and velocity readings on the 50 Express loads I shot.

[ 10-09-2003, 22:36: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

Be careful with Quickload and straight cases, the predictions become unreliable. I have used both Quickload and the M43 to verify results. Close on bottleneck cases, but not close on cases like 458 Win, 45-70, and the 50 cal. big cases I have been "Wildcatting". I have a binder full of Quickload calcs and M43 results.

I have figured out a "fudge factor" for bringing the Quickload predictions close to the actual pressures and velocities obtained in test firing, but for obvious reasons I will keep it to myself.

When I get to the 50 cal project using 500 Nitro brass, the case will be shortened to function through a "Opened up" M71.

After I win the Lottery, I plan on a Cape Buff hunt with Lever guns. Cowboy action shooting in its finest hour, cannot wait to see the expression on a PH's face when a dugga boy drops to a John Wayne style rifle.

BTW, the 50 Marlin weighs 9-1/2 pounds. Lots of stock mods to take the recoil, including two mercury recoil reducers in the stock and a KickEez pad. Heavy Pac Nor barrel also.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Mauser and M70 fan, but the Lever guns are fun to play with.

John, by "stretched 348" do you mean something like ta shortened 50-110?
Aren't those cases still available?
I think it's an awesome idea, but maybe for a <$1000 rifle.
Except for that ugly-ass pad on the end, that's a fine looking piece of work.
Not that I'm volunteering to fire it without the pad!
Q: How hard is it to bring a horse to Afrika?

50/110 cases are available from starline for about 75 cents apiece. It is modern brass designed for smokeless powder and modern pressures. They also have a recessed primer pocket designed for safety in tube magazines.

Case length is 2.4 inch.

Hey John,
If that gun is such a hassle to deal with, you could just send it to me, along with brass and dies, and i'll pay shipping for the deal.

jeffe

Well, long story. The guy that cooked this thing up wanted to use 348 brass, not 50-110, he was worried about headstamps and that someone would get a cartridge and fire it in some old 50-110 single shot and blow up a gun and pay a visit to the undertaker. Case length is longer than a 348, shorter than a 50-110.

It was a back burner project for me, so I am way behind in pressure testing. Got a box full of new loads to try, hopefully I will take a trip to the range with the M43 and run some tests.

That pad is pug ugly, but it works.

Don't need a horse in Africa, I have an old photo of Bell riding an ox. Maybe a zebra will do?

Back to the early days of Africa hunting, I wonder how the horses and oxen did not wind up as dinner for the lions???? Especially at night.

Bwana-be - I ran your concept through my software. Specifically, this is what I analyzed.

Case length of 2.2"
Neck of 0.4"
Neck OD of 0.54"
Straight taper from the standard Weatherby 378 magnum base to the neck.

Case capacity is 102 gr.
Bullet 570 gr with 0.5" seating depth
Powder charge 75 grains, which is compressed.
Chamber pressure of 40,000 psi
Muzzle velocity of 1920 fps

As John Ricks stated, to achieve 500NE ballistics you would have to load the lever action sized case to considerably greater chamber pressure than 40,000 psi. For the record, the 500 NE is loaded to greater than 40,000 psi. So it is a physical impossibility that a smaller case can match it's performance with the same or lower pressure!

So,
BB, even the troll finds that it'll be close to a 500... 200 fps slower... but that's closer than a 500 BPE...

someone tell me again, what peak pressure has to do with velocity?

LMFAO

jeffe

Judy, thanks for the data.
Try it with 106g capacity, mild-shouldered that is, and with the 1.75" lead bullet, seated (1.075" - (2.65" - 2.2") = ).725" deep. COL 2.65".
As for peak pressures and velocities, Jeffe, I'd love to hear how to raise speeds without raising pressure to push the bullet.
Of course you want the most suitable powder for the lowest peak pressure, but after that, why would raising peak pressure NOT raise speeds?

BB,
peak pressure has ZERO to do with velocity...

it's the area under the pressure curve that allows for velocity... otherwise, we'ld all load with greendot... but you can get the more velocity from a slower burning, but same pressure, powder... SOMETIMES

which is why different speed powders give similar muzzle veolicties....

peak pressure is a nightmare, no doubt, but it's in relation to the containment...

I would guess one could hit 60,000 psi with greendot, but it wouldn't deliver the same energy as, say, r7 and win 748... 458 winmag
<quickload data>
with X amount of greendot, a 385 gr bullet would hit 1997fps at 60,000

with rl7
Y (more than X)amount hits 2656 at 60,000

with 748
Z amount (more than Y) hits 2779, at 60000

700+ fps, with the same PEAK pressure.

Or, Inversely, the same velocity of the max pressure greendot, 1997, would be obtained with 22,000 psi peak with 748.

see what I mean?

It's kinda a myth, like a shoulder fired rifle could "knock over" big game

jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 00:50: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Bwana-be - I reran the calculations. I can only achieve your 106 gr internal capacity if I either: eliminate all body taper, or shorten the neck to 0.27".

I did neither. I reran with these case dimensions.
Base OD - stock Weatherby 378 mag - 0.582"
Shoulder OD - .565" (minimal body taper)
Shoulder angle - 45 degrees
Case overall length - 2.2"
Neck Length - 0.4"
Case capacity - 104.5 gr (close to your 106gr)
Seating depth of bullet - 0.725"
Compressed powder charge - 69 gr (105%)
Bullet weight - 570 gr
Max average chamber pressure - 40,000 psi
Muzzle velocity - 1817 fps

Hope this helps you out. FYI, the case capacity of the 500NE 3" is around 140 gr. I need to correct what I said in my last post, with regard to the maximum average pressure to which the 500NE 3" is loaded to, the spec is 40,700 psi.

jeffeosso, dear, you are a scary scary man. Pressure is what makes the bullet pop out the end of the barrel. Think of it like shaking a pop can. The shaking of the pop can releases carbon dioxide, which then exerts pressure on the inside of the can. When you pop the top the pressure is released suddenly, and well you know what happens when you open up a pop can that has been shaken vigorously.

BTW, I am not using a maximum pressure in the calculations, just a maximum average pressure. If you check out SAAMI or CIP specs you will see this type of pressure specified for each cartridge. The assumption in the analysis is that you have utilized the optimum powder from the perspective of both the pressure-distance and pressure-time relationships. In simple words, the calculated muzzle velocity is obtainable ONLY if you have used the best powder that you possibly can. In reality the velocity will most likely be less than calculated, or the maximum average pressure will be greater than assumed to obtain the calculated velocity.

Judy,
The scary part, "judy" is that you would think otherwise.... You need to go tell Outers and Olin to stop making all their different speed powders, and just sell ONE... this is why they sell and make the various burn rate (slower and faster) powders.

<http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html>
there's your burnrate chart...

i choose these various powders as they are wide portions of the burnrates, and I am lazy

greendot - 20
RL7 - 79
win748 - 104
win760 113

This is why we have different cases and powders for them...

This is pretty basic stuff, velocity has nothing to do with PEAK pressure

Peak pressure is a DO NOT EXCEED level of OPERATING pressure

however, judy, you are right, OPERATING PRESSURE makes the bullets leave the barrel

PEAK pressure has nothing to do with final velocity. I've post several examples above in 458 win, with loads at the same peak pressure have VASTLY different VELOCITIES. Below are the SAME pressure, in different cas

yet, in the example above, 22kpsi is TINY LOW pressure, that this case the bullet has the same VELOCITY of another powders 60k load

I pointed out that FACT that peak pressure has nothing to do with velocity.

In fact, let's look at a couple 25 caliber rounds, all loaded to 58,000 with a speer 120 gr bullet, all using, say win760 vs, of, greendot

257 r+p 58,000 PSI 2980fps 760 -- 2197fps green dot

25-06 58k psi, 3046fps 760 -- 2318fps greendot

25-284 58kpsi 3072fps 760 -- 2311fps greendot

257 weatherby 58kpi 3161 760 -- 2473fps greendot

why is the weatherby faster than the 257roberts +p at the same pressure? Because more powder is used to achieve that peak pressure... which has a directly caused by the volume of gas expanded in the burning of the powder... and those gases are what created operating pressure....

If peak pressure governed velocity (as a troll would say) then all 25 calibers loaded to 58,000psi would have exactly the same velocity given the same bullet, barrel, and primer....

Sorry to challenge those concepts for the troll.. but it's why EVERY reloading book as several powders that overlap the same velocity... with WIDELY different charges...

Jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 04:23: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Oh, back to the topic... I would LOVE to have something close to a 500 ne in a lever gun.... IF one could have SD in the bullets....

jeffe

Ican easily see the point being driven deeper and deeper into the ground, but the issue of peak pressure with a specific powder has everything to do with velocity as I understand it.
The higher your velocity, the higher your peak pressure.
Change powders, and change both peak pressure and velocities.
But once you have the powder that you want, increase charge until either target MV or target peak pressure, whichever comes first.
Is that not correct?
It's obvious you don't like Judy, but what's wrong with calculating loads based on peak pressures within given powders?

BB,
yep.. you are right, kinda... find the powder that shoots best, and get the load.. peak will limit what that powder can do, but not what all powders can do. The operating pressure will define the velocity... it's like "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" in the "more specific" deifintion.

As to Judy and why the point got driven that far into the ground...

"she" didn't provide what powder "her" 40,000 psi load was in relation to.

Jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 05:01: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso - that is because I don't want anyone using load data I provide over the internet. My post is to illustrate the potential not provide a recipe. You are an ignorant arse, and I do not like having any discussions with you. Please just leave me alone!

Powder burn rate selection is based upon the volumetric expansion ratio of the cartridge. It is nothing more than that.

Try this jeffeosso. In my last post I provided the case capacity, case dimensions, maximum average chamber pressure, and the charge weight. Why don't you run that data through your Quickload program and tell everyone what powder to use.

Or try this jeffeosso. What is the peak pressure, as calculated by your Quickload, if you load that 458 Winchester of yours with 55 grains of Green Dot, or Rel7, or W748, or H4831! That charge would be roughly the equivalent to the charge we are talking about with this 50 caliber cartridge. I'll bet with Green Dot it is a damned bit greater than 40,000 psi!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would wager Rel 7 gets you the closest.

You are either very stupid, or an immense jerk. Why don't you just leave me alone. Better yet, why don't you stop posting bullshit and keep your ignorant mouth shut.

Judy,

I posted that the powder weight increases as the powder get slower...

I am fairly certain you can read, so try again

as for following you around.. one would find that you tend to begin these little exchanges, by insulting me, or everyone else that doesn't agree with including me. Perhaps if you would leave ME the hell alone, I wouldn't bother when you are flagrantly wrong, unless you were going to get someone hurt

Why don't YOU just go away, as you have promised not less that 10 times in 12 months?

jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 06:00: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso - I did not follow you around. I simply answered Bwana Be's question. I admittedly missed his bullet specifications, but other than that I did as he asked. Do not get your shorts in a bunch because you cannot figure out what I posted. If you NEED to know what powder works for this cartridge just play with your Quickload program until you find a load at 104% to 106% case fill with the bullet seated 0.725" deep, and does not exceed a maximum average pressure of 40,000 psi while yielding a muzzle velocity of ~ 1800 fps with a 570 gr 0.510" diameter bullet.

That is all you have to do. You seem to have plenty of time on your hands considering all the posting and harrassing you do here at AR. Take a break from the cyber talk and do the math. Then you can impress us all by posting the recipe.

By they way, you will not get a smaller 50 caliber cartridge to outperform the 500 NE 3" IF you keep the maximum average pressures the same. Go ahead mess around with different powders and see if you can get a smaller capacity 510 caliber cartridge, which will fit into a standard commercially available lever actuated hunting action, to meet or exceed the performance of the 500 NE 3" with a maximum average pressure not to exceed 40,700 psi.

Do it and you will be the man! Post that recipe, jeffeosso, and many here will be on their way to a gunsmith to get that lever action cartridge fitted to their favorite Marlin. In the process you may actually learn what an ignorant arse you really are!

Judy,
Honey, if i prove you wrong on your little pressure thing, will you leave the forums forever?

your little thing was "By they way, you will not get a smaller 50 caliber cartridge to outperform the 500 NE 3" IF you keep the maximum average pressures the same " since lever actions aren't magical, I assume you meant any smaller round... unless you really really believe in magic. you meant maximum operating pressure, as we have proven peak pressure has little bearing

So, when I prove this, you will GO AWAY FOREVER, right?

Here ya go..

barrel assumed to be the same (22.5)
Bullet assumed to be the same (wood 570 SP)
pressure assumed to be the same 40,000 PSI
powder assumed to be the SAME (no playing with that part, as it's patently easy to show, as I did above, that higher peak pressure has NOTHING to do with max velocity)

500 Nitro 3", 570 gr woodliegh SP, 138 gr H20
105.2 grains powder , 2099 FPS

495 Asquare 2.80 132 gr h20, same bullet
104.2 grains, 2120 fps...

at 40,000 PSI for both, with the SAME POWDER....

No playing with seating depths, not adding barrel, no changing functions, no moly coating, no tricks... just changed to the different round, and had the estimate run at 40,000 psi.

So, troll, not only have we proven that you actually know nothing about reloading, we have also proven that you are unable to just say "wow, I hadn't thought of that" or any other words to the effect of "wow, I could be wrong"

sorry, Judy... buhbye now

btw, hun, I run a MAX of 100% load densities... i don't like compressed loads in big bores..
jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 06:32: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

And the only reason the ASq out-performs the
NE in this example is even though there was
about 1 gr powder less is the loading density was greater for ASq, IE less airspace in case.....
This has the effect of little more pressure under the curve after the peak
pressure spike which was the same 40,000 psi
in both cases.So jeffe is right that peak pressure
isn't the only parameter.The extra airspace in the 500 is that much more that has to be filled with expanding gases; to get to same peak pressure
and move bullet.

Peak pressure shouldn't be the only thing to
chase after, but designing loads to get the
greastest area under the curve...Ed.

jeffeosso - you really cannot read can you. I stated the cartridge MUST FIT IN A COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE LEVER ACTION. Show me one COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE LEVER ACTION in which you could feed a 495 A-Square! Once again jeffeosso attempts to dazzle us all with his utterly irrelevant BULLSHIT. Or, has Marlin come out with a new MAGNUM length M1895, which accepts cartridges with overall length of 3.65"?

Do you know what your example illustrates jeffeosso? It clearly shows that the 495 A Square is MORE EFFICIENT than the 500 NE 3", for the reasons Hubel stated. Want to know something else? The 495 A Square is MORE EFFICIENT than the 500 A Square too! Know why?

For those that don't know the 500 A Square has a case capacity of ~ 139 gr of water. Basically, Identical to the 500 NE 3". The 500 A Square is essentially a straight walled case also, so it's volumetric expansion ratio is practically identical to the 500 NE 3".

Lastly, no, I won't leave the forum. Why would I? It's funnier than hell coming here watching stupid people make utter fools of themselves day after day.
~tootles.

Thanks Ed,
Nice when someone that has a clue about internal ballistics Speaks up.

As for the troll, I knew it wouldn't be statisfied with any answer. It asked,
QUOTE]Originally posted by Judy:
jeffeosso -
By they way, you will not get a smaller 50 caliber cartridge to outperform the 500 NE 3" IF you keep the maximum average pressures the same. ... In the process you may actually learn what an ignorant arse you really are![/QUOTE]

Well, troll, I did find a smaller round that outperformed the 500 nitro, at the stipulated pressure.

I don't see how "proving" my point makes me an ignorant arse.

So, Judy, for the sake of all other posters, they don't you just leave? It's apparant that you have some sick fascination with me, otherwise you would not have posted to me again after the post below...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Judy:
jeffeosso - ... You are an ignorant arse, and I do not like having any discussions with you. Please just leave me alone!
....

Why don't you just leave me alone. ..

---

Why don't I just leave you alone? Because YOU attack me, at ever opprotunity, and then jump to another thread, cry out how brillant you are, and are WRONG in 75% of the cases.

Here's the first part, judy... in the thread where you declare that you proved ME wrong, along with others... I hadn't said it wouldn't fit. YOU read that tripe into it.. and then didn't recognize that you made the intitial error.

Go back and read what *I* posted, not what *YOU* wanted to read.

oh, yeah, are you still a doctor? how's the gig at wafflehouse turning out?

jeffe

jeffeosso - do you really believe no one can read? The quotation in your last post is taken out of context from what I stated!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the REAL quotation.
==================================================
By they way, you will not get a smaller 50 caliber cartridge to outperform the 500 NE 3" IF you keep the maximum average pressures the same. Go ahead mess around with different powders and see if you can get a smaller capacity 510 caliber cartridge, which will fit into a standard commercially available lever actuated hunting action, to meet or exceed the performance of the 500 NE 3" with a maximum average pressure not to exceed 40,700 psi.
==================================================

Your example is bogus and you know it! The reason is it WILL NOT fit into any lever action rifle!!!!!!!!! Your smaller cartridge is only 4% smaller than the 500 NE 3".

Furthermore, jeffeosso, by your reasoning I should be able to get a 30-06 to perform at the same levels as a 300 Win mag. I just need to select the appropriate powder. Show us how this is achieved big boy! Or, is a 25% difference in case capacity too great to pull off you little 'smoke and mirrors' bullshit? Remember, jeffeosso, we are loading the smaller cartridge up to meet the larger cartridge's performance not the other way around! That means the 30-06 needs to perform at full 300 Win mag levels e.g 180 gr bullet at 2980 fps with a maximum average pressure not to exceed 62,000 psi

Finally, moron, Hubel was not agreeing with you! He was telling you how your example was irrelevant because the cartridges in question were not significantly different enough, they are practically identical! Here I will explain it to you. For the ballistic performance required, 570 gr bullet at 2150 fps, the case capacity of the 495 A Square is better optimized than the 500 NE 3" <this optimization is nothing more than a 4% reduction in case volume, WOW>. This means with MODERN powders the 495 A Square is more efficient than the much older design of the 500 NE 3".

This is all pretty much stated in several reloading manuals. So anyone with access to A Squares manual "Any Shot You Want" can verify what I have said.

Besides that I did not attack you on this thread you paranoid ding dong! What are you talking about. You attacked me after I posted the results of the potential velocity achievable with this new cartridge at the pressure limit specified. Drop it all ready, jeffeosso, you are wrong, full of it, however you want to call it. Just leave me alone and I promise I will leave you alone likewise. Deal?

[ 10-12-2003, 19:26: Message edited by: Judy ]

You can get a 50-110 in big lever gun and it can be up to 500 NE performance with right powders.
There are posters on here that have done it.
Oh and you can get a 495 ASQ in a big Winchester
10 lever action.ED.

Hubel - I believe that the 50-110 is loaded to a maximum average pressure of ~ 50,000 psi to achieve NEAR 500 NE performance. I say near, because the 50-110 loads are with 525 gr or 535 gr bullets at 2250 fps to 2300 fps. This is what I found on my searches here at AR, anyway. By the way, the 50-110 has more case capacity than the cartridge I was requested to work with on this thread <109 gr for the 50-110 >. The increased case capacity along with the smaller <shorter> bullet allow more powder to be packed into the case.

Are you sure you can get a 495 A Square into an old antique Winchester lever action shotgun action? The 495 A Square is 3.65" long. A 10 gauge is 3.5" max. My bigger concern is pressure though. A 10 gauge is limited to 12000 psi. The 495 A Square would be 3.33 times that level. You are also dealing with antique steels in the Winchester lever action shotgun, which are weaker than the modern day steel used. Scares me anyway.

Hubel you and I both know jeffeosso is beating a DEAD horse. I am done with this thread. As a matter of fact I am done posting with you guys. I think I will just remain on the political forum.

[ 10-12-2003, 21:48: Message edited by: Judy ]

it's a smaller round, at the same pressure, with more velocity....

hmm, irrelevant? nope, perfect example for what you asked for. It's smaller, and it matches/beats. and someone other than the troll says is can fit in a lever action... hmmmm makes ya wonder, dont it

Typical troll tactic, though... you ought to be proud for consistancy sake, at least....

the horse that you describe as dead is the one that you rode in on.

adios troll
jeffe

[ 10-12-2003, 22:04: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]