The quest continues!

I looked up some data on the .450 Alaskan, and it seems to be quite a boy of a load!

Are there other well known developments of the .348 Win that use larger bullets?
What may those be called, and what typical ballistics do they have?
I'd be especially keen to hear about experiences using a 9,3mm (.366") or .400 (i.e. .408 to .411) bullet.

I built a 375/348 Ackley Imp on a siamese mauser. I wanted a caliber that would handle bullets between 250 & 300 grs yet have a decent trajectory out to 250-300 yds. at least something better than a 45-70. I choose the 375 because of the short ogive of many 375 cal bullets. The col of the cartridge must be kept a hair under 3 inches to work reliably in the Siamese action. I got shooting it just before hunting season last fall but have not done a lot of load developement to date. I have been useing 270 gr Hornady spire pts for fireforming cases and have been getting 3 shot groups of around 1 inch @ 150 yds. Hope to do more load work and chronograghing next summer.With lighter bullets should be within 100fps of the 375 H&H so this can't help but be a dandy moose ,elk & bear rifle. A 9.3 cal version would be very similar. The 348 imp case is almost identical in dimensions to the win short mag case except for the rim and the longer neck. Hope this helps.

There has been some very good articles in Rifle/Handloader magazines about the different developments (wildcats) based on the 348Win. case. Most of them are used in the Winchester/Browning Mod 71. Chamberings in .375, 416, 458, and .512 (50) come to mind.
I had a Browning Mod. 71 in .348 Ackley Improved for many years and it accounted for a few moose and bears. I later sold it and moved up to 45-70 and 50-110WCF, also in the M1886/71. With its sharp shoulder, the .348AI sometimes gave me feeding problems.
When you move into real big bores, you have the 50 Alaskan, which is a great cartridge. I chose to build mine into the 50-110WCF which will shoot the same bullet at lower pressures - this makes sense in a lever action.

Mistäpäin Suomesta muuten?

Regards,
Vasa

Tampereelta...

I have a marlin cowboy converted to 50 alaskan. Works wonderfully with 300 grain barnes, 450 barnes and flattened 535 grain woodleighs. It is about all you can get from a levergun.

Schauckis

One that I am working with is the 50 B&M Alaskan. It takes the 50 Alaskan down to .500 caliber (50 Alaskan is .510). I have both, the .500 and the regular 50 Alaskan and there are some very very good bullets available in .500 caliber. Both will basically do the same thing, just more bullets available in .500 than for .510 for a lever gun. One of the best is the 500 gr Hornady. My guns are Win/Browning M71s and Marlin Guides, all with 18 inch barrels. I can run 500s at 2000 fps in these guns. SSK Industries has the reamers, dies, and barrels. Ruger #1s, Win 1885s, and Encores can be chambered for it too.

Michael

Ouch!! Sounds like plenty of gun to me....

What kind of velocities do you expect to see, Michael?
How about pressure?
I'm thinking of the m/ 1895 Winchester from the pre-WWI era. Consequently, pressure needs to be kept rather low. That is, in fact, one of the original .348's fortes.

Snowman's .375 certainly sounds like a sound choice, also providing an excellent selection of bullets.

As to the original .348 the concern is specifically bullet choice. Choosing a more standard bullet diameter would give a round whose utility covers big game all over the world. In Europe the 9,3mm would thus also be a dandy option.

Schauckis

OK-1895. Whenever 348 is mentioned I think M71s. I have never messed any with a 1895 so I can't be much assistance there. However I can tell you that 9.3 has recently become an interesting caliber for me, but in the bolt guns. I think take a look at 9.3, lot's of good bullets these days for them, and being in Finland might be just the choice for you. On my side of the pond I am liking very much the 9.3 Hornady bullets. I think they would work very well at the velocity the 348 case can produce.

Michael

If your m/1895 has been chambered for the 7,62x53R you would do well with using the 9,3x62, no pressure problems, but because of case head size, that might not work.
Do the fellows at Tampereen Asepaja still do custom work, they used to be good at that?

Vasa

I have a couple of old magazine articles on the .348 Wildcats. It lists the .348 AI, the .375/.348, the .40/.348, the .45/348, the .450 Fuller, the .450 Alaskan, and the .50 Alaskan. There is also some talk about a .416/.348, but no details. Evidently, the .45/.348, the .450 Alaskan, and the .450 Fuller all have slightly different dimensions.

Evidently, there is a difference between conversions made on the Model 71 and those on the 1886 Winchester. The .450 Fuller had a longer neck and milder transition in order to feed better in the 1886. In addition, the .450 Fuller is held to a lower pressure limit since it was made for 1886's. It is supposed to send a 350gr bullet at 2,000fps with 61gr of IMR4198.

Here is some of the reloading information given (I have not fired any of these, so I cannot vouch for their accuracy). It appears that everything over .348 has the Improved body taper, although they could not be called AI.

.348AI -- 180gr bullet at 3,007fps -- 67gr IMR4064
.348AI -- 250gr bullet at 2,564fps -- 66gr H380
.348AI -- 300gr bullet at 2,222fps -- 59gr IMR4350

.375/.348 -- no data in these articles

.40/.348 -- 300gr bullet at 2,439fps -- 69gr IMR4064
.40/.348 -- 400gr bullet at 2,105fps -- 62gr IMR3031

.45/.348 -- 400gr bullet at 2,273fps -- 70gr IMR3031
.45/.348 -- 500gr bullet at 2,000fps -- 67gr IMR4064

.50 Alaskan -- 485gr bullet at 2,100fps (powder not listed)

I had SSK build me a TCR barrel and had them chamber it in 35/348 ackley improved. while not the caliber you were asking about, i can attest to some dramatic ballistics. my favorite load pushes a 225 ballistic tip at 2900 fps. as stated earlier, the blown out 348 is nothing more than a wsm with a rim which some of us prefer for single shots.

a 411/348 sounds like it would be a whole lot of fun!

MileHigh

I swear you have 411 fever!!!! You must do something in 411 to get over it!!!! OK--tell me about 411, what can we do?? Every wildcat we talk about you want one in 411!

Heh!

Michael

I fell in love with my Winchester/Browning M71 with 20" barrel. It handled so fast, I swore it had a brain of it's own. My only problem was bullets... I didn't like having to buy 5 or 10 boxes at a time so I'd be sure I had bullets for next time.(I lived in Alaska at the time)
I decided to rebarrel to .416/348 AI because the .45's were too much for THIS poor boy. I could probably handle it, all right, but I'd want to use it a couple times(a week). Why have a gun and not use it?
The reamer for the .416(400 grainer) was $90 more than a .375(300 grainer) so I bought THAT, instead. I've not been sorry since.
The only bullet that I use for the original reason(bears) is the Hornady 300gr soft-point round-nose. The ballistics with a max of 45K chamber pressure, is about 200fps less that a .375 H&H factory load. I've used 15 different powders to get there. The sights are Williams peep, and I can stay under 1 1/2 inches at 50yds. Most of that is cause by my tired old eyes, but the rifle sure shoots quick!
If you want the loads, I can print them, and they've all been chronographed on an Oehler M33 with 5' spread.
I'm playing with a 300gr cast .38/55 bullet, and come spring I'll have some 260gr cast gas-check to try. For moose, caribou, and black bear, the cast boolit should do just fine, and at a much lower power-level.
Have fun,
Gene

Thank you all for your input!
I knew I was on the right forum here.

Michael:
Agree!

Vasa:
Problem is the 7,62x53R is rimmed, the 9,3x62 not. Consequently, a modification would most likely lead to extraction problems - typical on 1895s so converted.
If the original gun is chambered for rimless ammo, then 9,3x62 would be my choice. Some guns have been converted for this caliber, and the users are happy.
Funny you should mention TAP: I also use a TAP Lakelander in 9,3 - so I know the caliber.
As far as I know, TAP does not exist anymore. You're thinking of Pirkan Ase/Torsti Laaksonen, right? He is still in business!
However, if I go for conversion work, my man is Lopponen from Savonlinna.

Harry:
Very informative, and just what I was looking for. Thank you!

In Mr. Ackley's books I believe the case was necked down to .30 (.30 Howell?) in improved form. It was much used. So about anything you want is available. 7mm Wade?

The rim is from the old .50/70 case. Slightly bigger than the .45/70.

I had Mr. A redo a Siam Mauser to .35/.348 Ackley Imp. The project is not done by any means. [Yes, I am targy.] I would comment that after working with the Powley system for developing data, I have taken "starting loads" --REPEAT "starting loads"-- from commercial manuals for the .358 Norma cartridge, loaded and fired them without unacceptable or even interesting pressures in my rifle. That is ONE RIFLE. I have fired mid range loads too again without unacceptable pressure sign. If you section a case, you will not find the amount of brass/strength? of a belted magnum... I would hesitate to seek pressure that I would accept willingly in my .22/250. Happy New year. Luck.

COn - I DO!! I have it bad lol I NEED a .411 of some sort before I go nuts The question though...is what?

MileHigh

I think maybe you would get some good use out of my little 50 Super Short case, squeeze it to .411. I think this big 348 case is too much, only a few rifle bullets in .411 so not much of a selection. Drop down to the super short to .411 and you might can take advantage of all those handgun bullets in .411. Of course can always download the 348 case with those handgun bullets too.

Anyway, a super short would put you in a nifty 16 inch barreled short rifle.

.411---??????

Heh! LOL

Michael

Schauckis,

Yes, I'm thinking of Torsti Laaksonen and Pirkan Ase. He did 3 or 4 guns for me
way back then.

Vasa

Michael - I have actually thought about bringing that exact idea up with you, just havent got around to it! I think it would be a great balance of frontal area and velocity, seeing as most .411 or .410 bullets are made for 405 Win type velocity.....minus the heavier North Forks and TSX's....and I guess the new Hornady DGX. For under 350gr tho....good to go

D'yall know what?
Yesterday, I was browsing through CIP's cartridge list, and an official development of the .348 caught my eye.
It's called 8mm-348Win and it is a French (!) development.

Ok, it's not an "upped" .348, as the 8mm bullet is .323 in diameter. This would be quite a potent rimmed cartridge, considering the powder capacity of the parent case!