Does any one know of a WC based on the 50 BMG that pushes the case down to around 150 grain capacity and necks it down to 338? There is little to NO data that I have been able to find on the net about 50 BMG wildcats! The spotter is to big and the brass is getting more difficult to find. The 50 bmg can be taken down to a very short case, hell Id say to sixty grains or so.

WHY, well BECAUSE!

338-378 wby mag is a good platform and will out shoot the Lapua mag by a hair. When a good hard look is taken the cases are so long that seating a bullet all the way out; if you just paid 3 or 4 grand to use a 120grain case ant you going to want to USE it, will defeat the magazine and a functional mag is good medicine that I demand on a custom. When I had this problem with the 250 Humdinger (25 Souper imp 45deg shoulder) I just had it built in a 06 length action. The next step from a big mag action is the 50 action and with the bolt face being factory cut for Browning's cartridge why not make life simple, squeeze down the 50 to a more suitable capacity and let fly. While making changes put your preference in shoulder and taper, that much brass allows for the designer to chose the neck wall thickness and a whole lot of other perks. The best part of the whole bit is that there is so much more material in the bigger actions that a 150grn charge will do allot less moving than compared to the Wby MKV which is really maxed out for the 338-378 wby mag chambering.

With added safety, strength/accuracy potential, an operable mag and a short fat case I am surprised there are not more of these things! A project is not feasible for me right now due to the crappy economic situation but I would like to lay the ground work for a rifle along these lines, Cartridge drawings, making reamer and gauge set, getting dies and the rest, all very slowly at least until I have a fat profit margin again!

You might want to check out the Allen mag line of calibers here is a good example
375 Allen Magnum. I had done some quick load development and settled on the following load:

New Jamison cases
350 gr SMK
144.0 gr Retumbo
Fed-215
4.315" OAL
3245 fps average

Kirby Allen post on this site
http://www.longrangehunting.com/

The 338/50 Talbot is described in COTW, 8th Edition, and probably other editions as well.

There have been many wildcats based on a shortened and necked-down 50 BMG but they all suffered from the same afflictions - short barrel life and/or ballistics no better than some of the more traditional cartridges such as the big Weatherbys, RUMs, etc etc. Not to mention the need for special, and expensive, actions

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
The 338/50 Talbot is described in COTW, 8th Edition, and probably other editions as well.

There have been many wildcats based on a shortened and necked-down 50 BMG but they all suffered from the same afflictions - short barrel life and/or ballistics no better than some of the more traditional cartridges such as the big Weatherbys, RUMs, etc etc. Not to mention the need for special, and expensive, actions

Ray

Here is the info on the 338/50 Talbot
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w33850.html

Tom thanks for the link to the RLB on 338/50 Talbot.

It seems that the Talbot cartridge was not shortened all that much and he must not have been working with the powder much at all, which in my next to worthless opinion was not the best way to get the most out of the 338. I am looking for 3200FPS with a 300 grain slug. A 160 grain capacity may well be able to handle this. Canister powder could be useable but I may have to use some of the old tricks with slower bulk powders to get up to speed.

Do any of you have knowledge of any good info involving WCing the 50, Bulk powders and any thing else that may be helpful in a project like this? The cost will not really be an issue just the design parameters.

Come on folks, some of the WCers should know of some place to get bulk powders ( In USA ) or at least some one to talk to about it?

quote:

It seems that the Talbot cartridge was not shortened all that much and he must not have been working with the powder much at all, which in my next to worthless opinion was not the best way to get the most out of the 338

Rex, Skip Talbot was a pretty good guy
http://www.fiftycal.org/skipt-eulogy.php I think Skip knew more about 50 cal then you will ever know so criticism on how he deveolped the his wildcat is uncalled for IMHO.

quote:

I think Skip knew more about 50 cal then you will ever know so criticism on how he deveolped the his wildcat is uncalled for IMHO.

Some strong words! Guess you knew him. Well he seems like an upstanding citizen and had allot of R&D under his belt but weather he knew more about 50 or any other cartridge than I ever, well the jury is still out on that one, as a matter of fact I have until the fat lady sings and I have loved to tinker since I was a kid, add that plus the fact that I am working on developing a conglomerate corp., you get a possibility that I might just get to know allot about my favorite sport! Now calm down and let’s talk powder!

Rex

You're digging yourself a big hole with comments like that about Skip. Yes, I knew him, shot with him and considered him a good friend so I may be a bit biased. But I would say that he probably knew more about the 50s than any 100 shooters combined. He was the founder of the FCSA, was a Silhouette National Champion, holds records in many other shooting disciplines including 1000 yard Benchrest, did considerable shooting at the extreme distances (1000 yards +). To talk to him you would have never known any of this because he was one of the most humble guys you could ask to know.

So, be careful. Your ignorance is starting to show.

BTW, COTW isn't the authority on the 50s or any other cartridge for that matter. What you see in it is just one snippet and a lot of the snippets are rife with errors. Don't judge any cartridge by what read in that publication.

JMHO

Ray

First and foremost let me address the WC forum and the board at large: I will not, have not and under any circumstances, defame Clifford Talbot. Rex

tom holland, Cheechako- From the first my question seemed to be judged and I would guess that it was judged as impractical. I believe this because after all that I posted the Allen Mags were brought up.

quote:

When a good hard look is taken the cases are so long that seating a bullet all the way out; if you just paid 3 or 4 grand to use a 120grain case ant you going to want to USE it, will defeat the magazine and a functional mag is good medicine that I demand on a custom. When I had this problem with the 250 Humdinger (25 Souper imp 45deg shoulder) I just had it built in a 06 length action. The next step from a big mag action is the 50 action

I am a member of the Long Range Hunting board and joined due to research of the Allen Mags. I read the board from time to time and generally will not post because of my lack of Long Range Hunting. That will change with time if the hippies do not manage to ban hunting in the next ten years. ( All members in USA VOTE )

Next I was informed that the 50 WC ALL were burners:

quote:

There have been many wildcats based on a shortened and necked-down 50 BMG but they all suffered from the same afflictions - short barrel life

Forget external ballistics for a moment and consider WHY a barrel gets shot out fast. The quantity of powder relative to the bore size is the determining factor. At a cretin quantity of a certin speed powder with a cretin size bore and a cretin TYPE of barrel metal and throat erosion will become unacceptable by your standerds. Now throw in how the thing is shot and the ball game is in a different town! If shot with out being let coo,l a barrel chamber for an overbore cartridge will be ravaged! So when someone tells me that their 30-378 Wby Mag only shot well for 250 shots I'll put cash on the line that they had one hell of a bruse on one (or both ) shoulder! With so many variables floating around and opinions as abundant I would guess my go/no go level is 150-160 grns capacity of a really, really slow powder, with a 338 in 416R stainless being cooled to a temp set by more study. Some shooters have gone as far as to actively cool their barrels but that is something I have not needed yet as I do not mind gazing through the scope, prone, at the wind and target between shots.

The 50 BMG brought down to a sixty grain capacity will shoot 0.308" medium weight slugs all day with out erosion, not to mention be shorter and fatter than the other guy's! The 308-60 BMG is born!

Now a reference to the 338 Talbot is brought to the thread.

quote:

Here is the info on the 338/50 Talbot
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w33850.html (As follows)
Historical Notes:

The 338/50 Talbot is the work of Skip Talbot, Talbot's Custom Equipment in Fallon, Nevada. Skip began development of the cartridge in 1984 as an outgrowth of working with the 50 caliber Browning Machine Gun cartridge. The 338/50 is a 50BMG necked down to 338 caliber and with the shoulder angle increased to 35 degrees. The primary purpose of the 338/50 is long range target shooting out to 3000 yards. Forming dies are made by RCBS.

General Comments:

The 338/50 is a highly specialized cartridge and not intended for hunting. It would, of course, be adequate for any North American big game and the same would apply to Africa. The cartridge is over bore capacity and sever throat erosion occurred within only 250 rounds. Talbot also tried a shortened version of the cartridge, about one inch shorter than the full length case, in order to increase the loading density. The maximum load of 170 grains of Accurate Arms 8700 powder occupied only 77 percent of the volumetric capacity. However, the short version was not successful because muzzle velocity was reduced by about 500 fps. The full length case developed a muzzle velocity of 3700 fps with a 250 grain bullet when fired from a 44 inch barrel. By comparison, the 340 Weatherby Magnum pushes the 250 grain bullet at an initial velocity of 2850 fps from a 26 inch barrel, so the 338/50 develops an additional 850 fps with the same bullet. When one considers that, perhaps, 500 fps of the muzzle velocity results solely from a longer than standard barrel, these ballistics are not so impressive. However, with a much slower powder and bullets of 300 grains or heavier, the results might be spectacular. It is an interesting cartridge, but not very practical for most purposes

I had researched this Wildcat when I was going to build my first real long target rifle and decided to go with the 338 spotter/tracer which got all messed up because of money. I have vowed to take a more detailed look into what I think a good 50 BMG WC for a 0.338" should be made of, during my down time and now I am back with allot more experience and understanding of powder speed and pressure behavior. A 28 deg shoulder, standard taper, 150-160 grn capacity case is my conclusion. Powder is the problem I just can not find powder that slow, maybe what is used for the 30mm or even a bit slower will do. The US 869 or even the AA 8700 must be like mag pistol powder in a 308 win. The erosion problem gets reduced with the slow powder because the pressure peak is not reached "practically" at the lands, lobbing a 300 grner faster with more even pressure!

Based on the little reading I have done on this particular chambering it seemed to me that it's creator KNEW it would have erosion problems and just wanted to see how bad they really were. It would interest me to know why he did not use a slower powder when he got the results that he did and if he did use a slower powder why the data is not in circulation with the cartridge specs. So you see that I consider the Wildcat process to be deeply personal and an opinionated journey, which makes comparison between one man's idea and another's to be like turning back time by sheer will power, IT CAN NOT BE DONE! Therefore, I have not claimed to have found deficiencies in the 338/50 Talbot, I have declared my reasons that I do not WANT to build it ( not to mention making that clear with a proclamation of "in my next to worthless opinion"{which you quoted !!!FCS})!

Which leaves me, gentlemen, with only one Question? How is it I am "ignorant" and what have I to be careful of?

Now that I have made it QUITE clear that you have insulted us all with your name calling and judgments I ask you to Repent and show an honest brother rifleman how to go about looking into the world of very slow powder!

Rex, When I posted the site (which you belong to) on Talbot wildcat one of the first things that I zero in on was the date early 80's, honestly I cann't remember which slow powders/surplus were avaiable back then so trying to second guess or the what if's.

I'm sure if Skip was alive today he give you all those answers but he isn't.

Well good luck on your project and sorry you feel insulted.

Rex,

Are you the fellow who was in communication with me about the 338/50 spotter reamer and dies?

THe 338/50 spotter will shoot a 320gr Matchking (thats no misprint a 320gr matchking-no longer made only made one run of 10,000) at 3500fps in a long barrel. Chronographed velocities not pie in the sky stuff. The spotter case will dirve a 300gr or 320gr bullet faster than the Allen mag (based on the 408 case) all day long. Its one bad ass long range set up.

Corbin

Corbin, good to hear from you. Yes, I did try to start a 338 Spotter with the equipment that you had offered. You were very kind to not give me hell for having to brake off so late in the process. I wish that it had gone through but alas it was no to be.

In our last communication I spoke of the situation having not changed and practically this is still so. It is hard to get going from scratch after being so close to catching on! The process is getting well under way now so I expect being able to have a good start on "equipment for sport" as soon as the end of the year.

My aspirations as far as wildcatting goes have changed drastically since we were last in contact. I was far less knowledgeable those few short months ago. In the mean time I have made an aggressive study of burn rates, pressure, and other interactions. With my group sizes using canister powder down to the "capability" of the rifle and my research into aspects of hand loading least traveled, I recently decided that I am ready to go after designing my Long range rifle.

I just do not want to use a cartridge specified by some one else. The case described above is a child of my creativity and a balancing act between desired speed and demanded barrel life. I brought it up here at AR partly to find out what powder others would use and partly to see what the reaction to my concept of useable magazine and a stronger action for essentially a 338 Lapua on steroids would be (bigger case slower powder).

The general idea is to build a switch barrel rifle that shoots 6 mm-60 BMG to 50 BMG and all the cartridges tuned and set to 100% or close loading density. That is where I have hit a brick wall, the 338 it seems wants slower powders to get to the desired speed with out excessive ware. The 416 will also need the slow powder if the case will hold enough to get it up to speed. The 50 (diffrent rifle ,bigger action) needs at least 400grns to get it up to speed probably more and the powder will have to be ultra slow with a really long tube. Both 416 and 50 are "pie in the sky" for now. If I can not find some slow powder the 338 may be scaled down to compensate for erosion which will bleed that speed but I refuse to shoot a rifle 250 times and have to replace the barrel!

Good shooting!

You could get the 338/378 to push the 300's at that speed, but you'd need a barel in the neighborhood of 33-35 inches. My 29" barrel will move them out at just shy of 3000 fps. which is plenty damned fast.