I have this itch for something in 6.5mm. I want something faster than the 6.5-284 or the 6.5-06 (which are basically the same in performance), but I don't think I want to go all the way up to a 264WinMag or the 6.5x68. Although, these are factory rounds so ammo CAN be found if you look hard enough. Plus, I've heard that these really big cases are true barrel burners. If I spend all the time and money to build a rifle, I want the bbl to last more than 500 rounds!

So, I'm wondering what other beltless brass has been used to make a good fast 6.5mm cartridge? I'm thinking along the lines of maybe the 9.3x64 case necked down to 6.5mm. I've considered the WSM sort of case, but I'm not sure I want to monkey around with getting something that fat to feed right - I've heard that it can be difficult. I'd not want to mess with a lot of complex case work and fireforming if I can avoid it. I already have a 338-06 AI that needs lots of brass attention. Are there any other cases with a base size smaller than the standard belted magnum diameter, yet larger than the 30-06 - other than the 9.3x64?

Are there other factory rounds that might fit this niche? I'm not real up on the 6.5mm bore. My smallest rifle now is a .308, but I want to get into the 6.5mm size and see how those high BC 120-140 gr bullets shoot. Essentially, I'm looking for a long range type rig for hunting and varminting, and the 6.5mm size is speaking to me loudly. Would a 24" bbl be enough to take advantage of any 'magnum' case capacities? I definitely do not want to go to a 26" bbl. That is just too long for my tastes. What twist is good for a real variety of all bullet weights, up to 140 gr? Lots of questions, I know but any steerage would be greatly appreciated. The smaller bores are something I have not really worked with at all. maxman

Maxman,
There is not a lot of performance difference between the 6.5-284/6.5-06 and the 264 Win Mag. 100 - 200 fps. If you want something in between maybe a 6.5-06 Ackley? I have a 6.5-284 and it is shooting a 140grain Hornady SST right at 3000 fps. It's on a Mauser with a 26" Douglas tube. I would think with a 6.5-06 Ackley you may see 3100 with the same bullet. Getting 3200 with that bullet in a 264 Win Mag may be tough in some rifles. Most of the reloading manuals stop at around 3050 - 3150. I guess it just depends on if you want to push things and here too the barrel life issues comes into play. My 6.5-284 has about 1000 rounds through it and it still shoots real nice.

As for a 6.5WSM, you would probably get 264 Win velocities. If there is an correlation between the 270 and 270 Short Mag I would think you coule get similar velocities out of the 6.5 WSM. You could go to Wally world, get the 270WSM combo for $370 and rebarrel it to 6.5 WSM for a couple of hundred bucks. This way, no feeding issues and you'd have a ready to shoot rig..after glass bedding of course. My little Wally world special in 270 WSM is a shooter!

Good Luck. Jason

6.5 Gibbs or 6.5 Howell sounds like just what you're looking for. The Gibbs is formed on -06 brass, minimum body taper, .25 neck length, pretty much max capacity for the -06 case. the Howell is an -06 case but longer, so you would have a little more powder room in the case. Have fun. - Dan

Maybe a .264 Thor/6.5 STW? You can load it down to 6.5-284 specs and load-up to easily outpace the .264 Win. Just a thought.....(with a 26" tube, you can push a 140 between 3,000 and 3,350 fps. Barrel life in the 3,000 - 3,100 fps range is actually pretty good).

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

Good ideas, so far, but nothing that fits what I am thinking about. The Howell/Gibbs/Hawk cartridges will require fireforming, which I don't particularly want to do. The Thor/STW option is too much of a good thing. The idea of a belted magnum driving a 6.5mm bullet just does not seem right. Plus, I am not too fond of belts - call me weird....

Anyway, I was hoping someone had done something with a beltless case that was a simple neck up/down, trim, and load sort of deal. Anything come to mind? I'd like to do that with the 9.3x64 case. Just run it in to a sizer to squeeze the neck down from a .366 bullet to a .264 bullet, trim off the excess and shoot 'em. No belt, no fireforming, maybe just a bit under the 264 WinMag case capacity, and it could do everything the 'improved' 30-06 based wildcats could do without pressure excursions or any sort of envelope pushing. Seems like an easy way to go. You'd end up with a fairly good neck length and a tapered shoulder for easy feeding. Plus, it will fit in any std length action - unlike the longer belted units.

Maybe this is just reinventing the 6.5x68 with a little less body taper? Ah, who knows yet. I'm still conceptualizing all this. It will be a while before I make a final decision and then do anything with it. It is a nice problem to solve, tho maxman

Maybe a 6.5/SAUM-take the 7SAUM neck it down.About 5-6grains less case capacity than a .264mag. Heard Hart in Nescopeck PA has a reamer. Just a thought

6,5*65rws a factory round similar to 6,5- 06imp.

Kimmo

Just a thought but if you neck down from .366 to .264, you will probably have to neck ream. It sounds like a 6.5-06AI would get you about what you are looking for. I think the 6.5STW is going to be way ovebore & burn barrels quickly.

When I look at the data there is only 100fps between the 6.5-06 and 264. You are concerned about the 264 being too big but are looking to use a case that will be within a grain or two of the same capacity. Basically a non belted magnum. The AI will close that 100fps. You are going to burn 10-15% more powder and your throat to get to the same place. IN my book the 24" in minimum for the 06 case and if you are going with the larger case then you need 26". For my two cents get the 6.5-06 run your cases in the die load and fire. I agree that you will will need to do some neck work if you take the 9.3 down to 264.

Fred - if taking the 9.3x63 down to 6.5mm is a new idea, could one specify a thick neck on the finished case? I'm not an old hand at wildcatting, so I might not know what the heck I'm talking about... If you plan on a thicker neck when finished, and spec the reamer as such, couldn't you avoid any neck turning/reaming? I seem to recall something like this with another common neck-down job. Is there such a thing as a formula or rule of thumb to know how much necks will thicken when moving down a given caliber range? Would they be obscenely thick, or just a little thicker than is typical?

On the other hand, I don't think neck turning would be any more work than fireforming - and it sure would be easier on the bbl and wallet than fireforming. A guy could sit in front of the TV and turn necks at leisure. For me, firing anything means loading, a trip to the range, cleanup, etc. I've tried the AI routine with my 338-06, and there is a lot of monkeying around before you get finished cases. I'm getting better at it now, but I'd just as soon avoid it if possible.

Anyway, I agree that the 6.5STW would be way too much. Lots overbore and a real bbl killer, IMHO. Heck, the 264WinMag is bordering on too much from what I have read. Thanks for the tips, maxman.

If you are going to the expense of having a custom reamer made you can have the neck dia anything you want. At some point it is going to be to thick. I don't have a clue where that is. Also the more you neck down the more the chance for the neck to be out of round. You will also have the cost of a custom die. But, basically anything is possible.

Maxman,

From your question and your responses to everyone so far I think maybe you will end up with a 6.5-284. I don't think you could ask for a more perfect solution. There's factory brass available, which solves all your fireforming concerns. It's not overbore, like the 264WinMag and maybe the 6.5-06. I'd consider "medium-hot" to be a 260Rem, 6.5Swede or if you must have a wildcat, the 6.5x57. The 06 and WinMag cases would have to be "hot."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these 6.5mm cartridges are less about packing in powder and squeezing those last few fps than they are about achieving the best balance between gilt-edge accuracy and downrange ballistics. The downrange part comes more from high BC than a bucket-load of powder.

As for barrel length. I would recommend a 26" barrel. The long-range varminting and hunting you mention will most likely not involve hiking through woods and brush, so why not go with a longer barrel? That extra 2" will give you the speed you want without affecting barrel life.

I think the 6.5-284 will give you plenty of punch. Do let us know what you end up with.

As one of the guys said, you can have a reamer made anyway you want, but I think you will still have a bit of a problem w/ thickening necks going that far down.

I would look @ a 6.5x.284, 24"-25" bbl. in a long action throated to let you seat 140-142gr SMK out so you can use all of the powder cap. in the case. I think this will get you the best balance of vel., bbl. life & w/ factory cases available, no excessive case prep. Sounds like a good project, maybe I need a new rig.

There is only .5gr less capacity between the 6.5-284 and the 6.5-06 case. Why do you consider the 06 overbore and the 284 not?

Just a thought a 6.5 RemMag. {oops} you donot like belts. I would go with the 6.5SAUM.Comprise on barrel do a 25".

What about the Remington 6.5 Rem Mag?

Ive got one in the works....necking the 376 Steyr down to .264 with a single radius shoulder. Software says the case capacity should be about 73.4grains of H20. "Reamer" we Dont need no stinkin reamer.....

"Why do you consider the 06 overbore and the 284 not? "

Mostly the mistaken belief that there was a bigger difference between the 2 cases. Given they're pretty much equal I'll reconsider my "overbore" statement. I still think these are a bit more than "medium-hot."

***WARNING***more opinions ahead***WARNING***

As a larger issue, I think for necking down the 308 case is a better option. 257/264/284 all are fine calibers for the 308. For my tastes, the 06 case seems too much for 257, just like the 308 may be a bit much for 243. Of course what do I know, my opinion certainly hasn't affected sales of the 243Win or the 25-06.

Thanks for setting me straight. This thread has reinforced my conviction that when it's time to add a 6.5mm to the safe it'll be a 260Rem.

Hrmm I would just go with a 260AI with a 8twist bbl.. Im thinking this because you want a short bbl 24" .. If you want a "magnum" you will need a longer bbl at least 26" to make use of the powder.. The 260 is the perfect choice its NOT a bbl burner you could drive the 140's around 2600-2800fps.. Forming would be simple.. Even the 6.5x284 is somewhat of a bbl burner 1500-2000 rounds if your lucky.. 6.5 WSM can really scream the 142's.. In a pinch you could use factory ammo..

6.5 Bandit

lol Gonzo you just beat me to it

It's kinda funny how this all comes around. About a year ago, I had this idea that I needed a 25-284. I decided to put that on hold and worked on a few other projects instead. Now I'm coming back around to the whole 6.5-284 idea. Maybe the 6.5 bore is just a little more sophisticated than the quarter bore, and I've matured in my cartridge picks? lol

The more I look at it, the more appealing this cartridge is. I guess I would classify the 6.5s this way:
6.5x55 SE is medium
6.5-06 is medium hot
264 WinMag is hot
There are lots of 6.5s to pick from, so I had to come up with some sort of way to classify things. That's just how I broke it down. Too much time to think about these things I guess. Anyone else keep a copy of COTW in the bathroom???

Now that Norma has standardized the 6.5-284, this is looking much better. I do like the idea of no brass forming, and this is only trailing the 'magnum' rounds by about 100fps or so. Not that big of a difference to me - it's actually what I was shooting for in overall performance. So, it looks like the decision has been made. Necking down 284 brass (which is more available here) should pose no problems as the 6.5-284 retains the same shoulder and headspace dimension, correct?

Now, I have a question or two about the hardware, for those that have shot the 284 or anything made from it. Does this case prefer CRF or push feed? Does it matter? I'm just trying to find the right action to start with. Like Fred mentioned, I will use a long action so I don't have any magazine length or OAL worries when trying to maximize capacity. I'm thinking of starting with either a surplus mauser or a Savage long action. Of course, any other ideas would be great.

I've heard that the rebated rim of the 284 case has caused some problems when the bolt tries to pick up the next round from the magazine - can anyone confirm or deny this one?

Is a 9" twist acceptable, or would it be that much better to go with an 8" twist? I'd like to shoot all bullet weights well.

thanks again, maxman

At the suggestion of several of the bench rest guys, I am having my .260AI done w/ a 1-8/27" to use all of the bullet weights available. Mine is a med. range target & varmint rig, Sendero wt. bbl. on a Rem. M700SA. Stay tuned.

6.5 SAUM by necking down 7mm Rem SAUM cases.

I've been shooting one for a year now in NRA Long Range game.
Barnard Action
Krieger 30" 1:8.5 twist
It pushes moly'd 147gr VLD Clinch River Outfiters bullets @ 3300 fps.

100yd zero-
17 MOA to 1000yds.

Keep'em in the X ring,
DAN

DAN40X have ever you ever tried 107mks or 109 lapua for velocity or drop? The 6.5 Saum sounds better all the time.

flick,
No,I haven't loaded any of the light .264 bullets, as the reamer was ground for Clinch River Outfitters 147gr VLD bullets.

Keep'em in the X ring,
DAN

maxman,

In response to your question about experience with the 284 I can tell you this: I have a converted Rem Mod 700 BDL that I bought used. I've never had a problem with the rebated rim and feeding or chambering. I believe it would be considered a CRF style feeding system. As I said I bought the rig used so I don't have the details one who did the work, but I can say that they did it right! It feeds well and shoots great!

If any of you have an Ackley book, this one is in it:
6.5 Sabre
It is based on the 06 case, but is a real rocketship.
I think it might be short action too.
Just something to look into.
I have an old 20" barreled Mauser action chambered in it that I have never done anything with, but I have always saved it because the caliber interested me.

-Spencer

You want performance BETWEEN the 6.5-'06/6.5X284 and the .264 Win. Mag., but don't want to have the bother of forming cases? I think you're splitting hairs, plus whistlin' Dixie!! Just get a .264 Woin & load it down! That'll increase barrel life, plus you have thwe option of .264 max. loads on those few occasions you might want it!

Remington is coming out with the 6.5 rem mag cases again. Have that one chambered in a standard length action and watch out babay!!!

Yes, the 6.5 Rem. Mag. is almost as good as a .270 Win!!

6.5 x 57 improved!

For a Mauser-length action, look at the 6.5x55 BJAI. That is, if you can stand the fireforming. It's blown out case takes advantage of the slightly fatter base diameter of the 6.5x55 vs. the 7x57 or '06 and just short enough to load long bullets w/o invading powder space. Faster than the 6.5x284 and at least equal to the 6.5-06...
6.5x55 BJAI 54grs of H414 120gr. at 3326 from a 27 in barrel.
6.5x284 Norma 59.4grs of RI25 120gr. at 3217 from a Norma 26in. barrel.
For varmints:
100gr. at 3540fps with 50gr. IMR4895
85gr. at 3747fps with 57gr. H414
In a slick old '98, it'd be the cat's ass.

maxman-



My vote would be for the 6.5 WSM. It's probably on the hotter side of Medium Hot. I love mine.



I built mine off of Model 70 Classic Short Action once chambered for .260 Rem. The smith altered the rail and it feeds like a champ. Don't believe all that hooey about the short mags not feeding; pure propaganda.

Don't take this the wrong way, but what does a 6.5WSM do better or differently than the factory 270 WSM? I do like the short mag concept, but these two seem to be pretty close to each other, with just the added work of no factory ammo to separate them.

I do think I am going with a 6.5-284 after all. I just have to find the proper donor action. I'd like to build one up from an extra VZ24 action I have here, but not sure if I want to go through all that work just to get the CRF function. This is no DGR, after all. Besides, a factory 30-06 action is longer than a M98 action and these long bullets are just begging to be seated out. I like the Savage action because of how easily it headspaces and the accuracy they seem to posess. I've liked every one that I shot. Not that headspacing a M98 bbl is real difficult. I've done that already too.

So, here's the current project concept: Savage long action with std size bolt face, and a precut 24" replacement bbl in 6.5 Swede. Run a 6.5-284 reamer in to cut the new chamber, which should completely clean up the factory swede chamber, screw on the bbl, and go shoot. I will probably end up with a 9" twist out of the deal, but that shouldn't be a bad thing necessarily. I'll just have to try bullets of different wts and see how they shoot. Plus, the whole deal can be done simply and cheaply. Anyone see any glaring problems with the idea? If the bbl needs to be replaced later, I can spec a different twist or whatever. I certainly can't fault a Savage for functionality or price. maxman

maxman, if you are going to shoot the 139-142gr bullets, you may have stability problems w/ the 1-9 bbl. The only real advantage to a 6.5 WSM would be as a target rig as there are alot more 6.5 match bullets than there are .270. Good luck w/ the project. I'm still waiting on my .260AI.

Fred - true enough about the stability concern. That is the only drawback to this plan. I guess the only way to know for sure is to whip one up and see what happens.

Thanks for the insight on the 6.5 WSM. I hadn't thought about match bullet availablity. I guess I'm just a hunter at heart. For hunting, I can't see where either one would be better than the other, I guess. But hey - just one man's opinion. When this all gets assembled, I'll be sure to post a rundown on the ups and downs. maxman

maxman

I have seen hunting rifles with 1-9 that couldn't stabelize 140 grain partitions at all. Take 1-8,5 or 1-8 in twist to be sure.

Cheers
/ JOHAN

That's interesting. My 10" twist 6.5 Gibbs (halfway between med-hot and hot according to the criteria above. ) has no problem whatsoever with the 140gr Noslers or Sierras. Heck, I even shot a nice pretty little group with 140gr Barnes X's one time (at 100 yards).

A 9" twist should be plenty for a hunting rifle, and would be more likely to "like" the lighter weight bullets available. 8 or 8.5 would definitely make the most sense for long range shooting with VLD bullets though.

FWIW,
Canuck

BTW, FWIW Quality Cartridge makes 6.5 Gibbs brass...no need to fireform.

Canuck