All,
It's been a while since I have posted. Good to see all of you still with it. I am looking for a 6.5 Wildcat that will push a 140 grain bullet at 3300 fps or so. I have a 338 Win Mag in a Model 70 Classic that can be rebarreled. Don't need a 338 anyway. So, I would prefer something that I would not have to rework the bolt for but have noticed the 7mm Dakota as a possibility. Neck her down in one step and you'd be off and running after a little boltface work. So, does anyone have one of these? PAC NOR has the reamer on their list so are PAC NOR barrels any good?

I have also looked at the 6.5 -300 WSM but do not have the action just laying around. I do have a 30-06 action so I could do something with it. I don't think the 6.5-06 AI will do this in all honesty. I am looking at 26 inch tube max so I just have not seen any data that would tell me that the 6.5-06 AI will consistently and safely get to 3300.

I look forward to your input folks. It is good chatting with you again.

Cheers,
Jason

Pac Nor makes a very good barrel. I would guess to get that velocity you are going need a case in the 100 gr capacity range and a 26" barrel.

I would think a 6.5x7mm Dakota would get you there. I have a 7mm Dakota & easily get 140gr @ 3400fps from the 26"bbl. An interesting if not way overbore project. Another round to look @ would be a 6.5STW built off 7mmSTW brass. THis would fit in your M70, remove the spacer in the back of the mag. box. HutnerJim shoots a 6.5-06, maybe he can input, but I don't think you can even get close to 3200fps there.
I have (4) rifles now wearing PacNor bbls. The same gunsmith did (3) of them & now recommends them to his other clients. There are many good bbl. makers out there, I have just settled on PacNor as best value for the money.

A couple other options would be the 6.5 Thor which I think is a STW case blown out. Another would be the 6.5/300 Weatherby. I just ordered reamer from PTG for a 6.5/300 Ultra mag. I am looking to get 3450fps. with 140 weight bullets. On Another site a gunsmith is building 6.5's based on the 338 Ultra Mag case with almost no body taper. If you need more info I can get it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by littledevil:
A couple other options would be the 6.5 Thor which I think is a STW case blown out. Another would be the 6.5/300 Weatherby. I just ordered reamer from PTG for a 6.5/300 Ultra mag. I am looking to get 3450fps. with 140 weight bullets. On Another site a gunsmith is building 6.5's based on the 338 Ultra Mag case with almost no body taper. If you need more info I can get it for you.

Why dont take it all the way?

A friend of mine, Afterburner, has a rifle-project thats going to be a 6,5/378 Wby.
(I believe that would be a great flamethrower!)

Interesting, but not sensible. You can also probably neck down a .50BMG case to 6.5...and get
7,000 fps...but why? The thing is not ultimate velocity...if going for long range in a 6.5, then you would want to use 160 gr. bullets for best long range energy & ballistics...with little less velocity at muzzle, but better downrange. My opinion is that there are other factors other than highest muzzle velocity...then if you consider all factors...can get a good cartridge design...otherwise its all amateurish stuff. How can you think one factor like high velocity is all there is? What about bullets that perform well at certain velocities downrange?
My 2 cents for the day. "Illigitimi Non Corborundum" Tom

You will need 92 grains of usable case capacity, and it WILL be a barrel burner. Heck, the 264 Win Mag has only 79 grains of capacity and it burns up bbls.

The 6.71 Blackbird bt Lazzeroni clocks 3550 fps with the 140 grainer, but holds more powder than the 300 RUM.

About barrel burning, I've heard it's more a matter of heat than powder mass. The larger case allows more of a slower powder. Problem is, a guy wants to constantly push it to the hilt, and ends up burning barrels faster the more powder there is. If this is true (never burned out a barrel myself - yet!) then a 308 would burn a barrel out as fast as anything else by using too fast a powder.
If you run a 6.5 Win like a 6.5-06 it'll last a lifetime.
Run your 6.5x505 Gibbs like a 6.5 RUM and it might last longer than you think. (You'll need to use RL 42, though.)

quote:

Originally posted by bisonland:
Interesting, but not sensible. You can also probably neck down a .50BMG case to 6.5...and get
7,000 fps...but why? The thing is not ultimate velocity...if going for long range in a 6.5, then you would want to use 160 gr. bullets for best long range energy & ballistics...with little less velocity at muzzle, but better downrange. My opinion is that there are other factors other than highest muzzle velocity...then if you consider all factors...can get a good cartridge design...otherwise its all amateurish stuff. How can you think one factor like high velocity is all there is? What about bullets that perform well at certain velocities downrange?
My 2 cents for the day. "Illigitimi Non Corborundum" Tom

I sure didnt say this was a good design. It is rather a prove to what you just said, Tom.

Don't burn all that powder. Get a .264 (dies & brass are easy and cheap), but have SSK build it on a ruger #1 or OTT build it on an Encore, w/ a 28" barrel. Overall length will be teh same as a long action bolt gun w/ a 22." And you don't need to worry about multiple shots since a 6.5 isn't going to be a dangerous game rifle.

using a 30/06 length action you could go to a 6.5 Gibbs. That would get you to to vel your looking for and still retain the 06 bolt face.

A 6.5 Gibbs with a 26" barrel will only get you about 3100fps with a 140gr bullet.

My 6.5 Gibbs has a 24" tube and I Max (with a capital M) out around 3050 fps.

A 6.5 RUM would certainly get you to 3400fps though.

Cheers,
Canuck

Once case capacity divided by bore squared exceeds a value of 1000, you are getting into territory where bore life is a serious consideration. To make the velocity you want with the bullet you want, you will be over a value of 1300. Heat does play a role, but the sheer quantity of gas that must form up and exit the throat will take a big toll.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with your wildcat...just be prepared to take actions to make the bbl last as long as possible and replace the bbl when needed.

All,
Thank you for the replies. I will say that though I appreciate the worry about my barrel life and the fact that I am being extreme with this idea I am looking at 3 or so criteria in this choice. I will outline them below.

1. I hunt in Kansas on our farm and long shots can be the norm. Couple this with the fact that I became an amputee last year makes stalking somewhat more challenging for me. I will say I get around pretty good and improving all the time but my thinking is to get something that can do the job on the spot and at the range. Me chasing a wounded deer over hill and dale does not appeal to me in my current condition.

2. I have a 338 Win in Model 70 Classic. The Dakota will fit in this action while the RUM case will not (I believe). I also have a 30-06 action to build on so something there could be a thought. I would prefer to use an action that I have to reduce the cost of the project.

3. I shoot a lot but also have a lot of guns. This baby would get 50 rouns through it a year max. She'll out last me regardless if I take the 50BMG down to 6.5. I shoot my 220 Swift 1000 times a year for the last 10 and she still shoots real well. I am not worried about this.

All, I was looking for a viable option to approach the velocities that my 8 mag is with my 180 grain load. The 8 worked great last year but to say the least I was a bit overgunned. I am looking for a highly accurate bolt action rifle in 6.5 cal. Pac-Nor has the reamer and they could put the barrel on for me. I have also considered the 6.5 - 270 WSM. Maybe that would be a better choice. Either way I am not afraid of putting 92 grains of powder down range if it gives me what I want.

Thanks again for your replies and I look forward to more input.

Thanks, Jason

I'd say drop down to a 120 gr bullet, and alot of options open up to you for getting 3300 fps. I don't think there's a deer alive that won't be effectively dropped by a Barnes triple shock or similar bullets of that weight range, and I'd consider it an honest 400-500 yd rig.

I've been a long time fan of the 6.5mm's, and have been considering one that shoots fast and flat. After debating many options, the .264 win mag pushing 120's 3300 seemed like the most practicle combo.

I've played with a fair number of wildcats and proprietary cartridges, and there is something to be said for commonly available and reasonbly priced brass and reloading dies.

A 140gr bullet is not needed on deer, a 140gr partition is huge overkill and a 140gr conventional not needed when you can choose a 125gr partition for the same or better terminal effect. If you are thinking about 140gr match/VLD bullets, these often don't show good accuracy at these sorts of speeds.

Long shooting requires more than 50rounds a year so barrel life IS as consideration.

The 6.5 of choice for the long range boys is a 6.5-284 mated to a scope with BDC, good rangefinder, shooting a 140gr match bullet. Personaly I'd do the same but substitute a 125gr partition or 120gr ballistic tip and not go too nuts on the weight.

Your idea of using a 300 or 7mm Dakota is a good one, given your need for 92 grs usable case capacity, and the 338 Win action. The bolt face work is minimal...in fact, some 338 bolt faces work without any work. I recommend using a 28 inch bbl and 1 in 9 inch twist for the 6.5 cal 140 grainers.

Note that the 7MM Dakota meets all your requirements as well, and easily pushes a 140 gr bullet 3400 fps. The drop in BC from the 140 gr 6.5 bullet compared to the 7MM does not off set the 100 fps velocity increase for 500 yards and you still have the same sectional density as a 165 gr .308...perfect for deer.

6,5Messner Magnum is probably what you r lookin for. A necked down, improved 9,3x64Brenneke.
Montero

jrswick@yahoo.com

Some info about 6,5X63 Messner Magnum

http://www.calibres-messner.com/index1us.html

http://www.jww.de/artikelbeitrag/artikelbeitrag_58669.html

Cheers
/ JOHAN

I have a .264/WSM on a 700 long action, Krieger 26" barrel with 8.5" twist.

I used the H.S. Precision triggerguard/floorplate with single stack magazine to facilitate feeding.

I picked the longer action so I could seat bullets out.

Unless you are shooting at world record weight Mulies
it's likely that a 100gr partition would do the job and these can be launched even faster than 120's. The Nosler manual shows the 100gr partition from a 264WinMag at ~3550fps with two different propellants.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by bisonland:
Interesting, but not sensible. You can also probably neck down a .50BMG case to 6.5...and get
7,000 fps...but why? Tom

You can't achieve 7000fps by necking a 50BMG down to 17. The fact of the matter is that propellant gases achieve maximum velocities in the region of 5000-6000fps. The bullet simply cannot move any faster than this.

Jason, I don't know why you think you need a wildcat cartridge, I'm sure you have good reasons, maybe you just want it!! That's a good reason in my book! But I agree with Paul, a 264WM with 120's is not to be sneezed at. Could you tolerate a 6.5 that shoots 140's a mere 100fps slower than your goal of 3300 fps out of a 26" bbl.? That would also be a 264WM. A 264WM is certainly capable of that w/ a 26" bbl. Reference John Barsness article on 264's in Rifle magazine several months ago, in which he had several loads achieve that mark. Furthermore, several posters over at the campfire, claim 3300 fps w/ 140's, no doubt warmish loads! While I am a longtime 264 shooter, I have never chronoed mine, because when I worked up loads for it, I didn't have a chrono, and now that I do have a chrono, I haven't gotten around to it. So I don't have any anecdotal evidence of my own to contribute. My 264 is such a tackdriver that I almost don't care about the velocity!

I think you might consider the possibility of rebarreling your 338 to a 264, using a quality match grade barrel, and have the action, bedding and trigger gone over by a qualified smith. Then brass, dies, etc. are cheaply available, even factory fodder. If it was me, I would just keep the 338 (or sell it), and buy a 264. Both Remington and Winchester have produced 264's recently with 26" bbls. Ruger has produced two variations recently, but with 24" bbls. Then I would get a trigger job, make sure the bedding was up to snuff, and start working up loads! If that 264 doesn't live up to your expectations, get rid of it and get a different one! Good luck however you proceed!

If you are looking at 3400fps to flatten trajectory rather than to add to the energy then you might want to consider going witha fast-twist barrel and a long-for-the-caliber bullet. Take a look at what some of hte long-range shooters are using and you might be suprised.

how about 6.5 STW

6.5X.300 Weatherby-Wright Hoyer.

My 6.5 Gibbs has a 27" Lilja barrel, Rem 700 action. I only shoot 120's but with Norma MRP and Re 22 it does 3400 fps with ease. I had loads as high as 3500 fps but primer pockets loosened after 6 or 7 loads, so backed off.

Shot the 6.5 Gibbs today. 80+ degrees in Sask. today. With 140gr. Wildcat match and blended powder (RL 25 burn rate) average vel. 3255fps. Mauser,Timney trigger,30" Gaillard stainless 1-8. More powder did not increase vel. Feeds well,low recoil, best group was just over 3/4" but we should be able to tighten them up a bit with some development.I think the Gibbs case is just right for the 6.5 bore. I have a 6.5 STW with a 30" barrel that gets over 3300 with 140's but I can't get it to group. Just my$.02,Mark