Any 35 B-W users out there?? What sort of ballistics are you getting? I realize case forming is a little more difficult than 35 Whelan Imp, what sort of improvement in velocity? Also anyone know who has a reamer, preferably in Canada? Thanks for any input.

Don't have a BW but years ago I tested a 35 Whelen my own 350PDK my capcity would have been a grain or two more than the BW. Loaded as best I could tell to the samre pressure range I was seeing 60-75FPS increase over the Whelen. That was in the same rechambered barrel

I remembered that there was an article in the 1956 Gun Digest. Hal Stephens wrote an article about a bull barrel gun that Fred Barnes and Norman Brown had rechambered to a wildcat of Brown's design by PO Ackley. The rifle was originally a 35 Whelen Improved. They moved the shoulder forward for a powder increase of 5 grains. In their data table, they got a velocity increase of 210 fps for 180 gr, 230 fps for 220 gr, 140 fps for 250 gr, and 130 fps with 300 gr. It is interesting to note that
the lighter bullets increased more, but this was due to switching powders in addition to increasing charge. In the case of the 180, the powder charge was actually increased by 13 gr of a slower powder. The heavier bullet increases were due only to increase in charge weight of the same powder. The increase in both cases was 5 grains, the same as the increase in case volume.

Its interesting to note that I saw a "Major Magazine" column a few years ago by one of the big name writers which touted the BW and gave its history as having been developed in (IIRC) 1961. His story of the cartridge had nothing in common to the one dated 1956, which fully details the facts of the development and occured years earlier. Goes to show you shouldn't believe everything you read.

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In their data table, they got a velocity increase of 210 fps for 180 gr, 230 fps for 220 gr, 140 fps for 250 gr, and 130 fps with 300 gr.

Compared to what baseline?

The article listed was comparing before and after of a 35 Whelen AI which was rechambered to the new (then) 35 Brown WHelen. The rifle belonged to Barnes the bullet guy, so I presume they were using his bullets in both. According to the article, Ackley did the work on the original rifle and the rechambering, so you have to assume that it was consistent and correct. About as good a comparison as you will likely find. Like everything from the era, it is subjective, but at least they had chronograph data and the tests were run by professional gun people. There was no pressure data and no range of data to show load develo-pment. There was no baseline for the standard 35 Whelen.

Well for my 2 cents whoever wrote the article "COOKED THE BOOKS". Picking and choosing what powder and how much I choose to use in a comparison would allow me to document just about anything I want.

Unless my numbers are way off a 35W has a water capacity of around 69.3grs an AI has around 71.3 and the 35BW is around 73.2. That says the AI is 2.9% larger the BW is 5.6%. If anyone wants to believe that the extra 1.9grs or 2.6% is going to give on the order of a 5-10% velocity increase over a 35WAI loaded to the same pressure in the same barrel then please go for it.

My 350PDK was right at 77grs or 11% larger than the Whelen I pushed both to what I felt was the limit in the same barrel and gains were less than 100fps.

If you want something like the BW talk to bitterroot and get a 350Howell it is 75.4grs and brass and dies should be available from AHR

I have a 35 Whelen AI, if the Brown/Whelen increases the case capacity the extra 2grs. I could belive another 100fps which on average is the real world "gain" between the standard and the AI for a similar amount of powder.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Any 35 B-W users out there?? What sort of ballistics are you getting? I realize case forming is a little more difficult than 35 Whelan Imp, what sort of improvement in velocity? Also anyone know who has a reamer, preferably in Canada? Thanks for any input.

The Handloader Manual of Cartridge conversions has the 35 Brown Whelen @ 76.93gr H2o,35 Whelen @ 72.63gr H2o and the 35 Whelen IMP @ 73.58gr H2o.

I've had acouple Gaillard barrels you might call him and he could find a gunsmith for you.

Ted Gaillard
P.O. Box 21
Pathlow, Saskatoon S0K 3B0
306-752-3769

I've have a 35 Whelen AI almost did the BW friend of mine has one good caliber. Well good luck

No dog in the fight and don't care. Just thought I would report some data from an old source, which was requested. The people who supplied it were the cartridge designer, a well known bullet maker, and PO Ackley. I have to presume it was accurate. Was it biased or misleading? Probably, as is almost everything I have ever read from that period.

Art, I sure wasn't trying to shoot the messenger. I'm sorry if I can across that way. I appreciate you taking the time to post info from that old article.

For the people wondering what the different Whelens look like. They’re all based on the 30-06 Springfield case.

EVERYONE puts their favorite cartridge in the best light, using the best powders etc...fercristsake...You included Ramrod...and ANYONE thats into wildcatting pretty much understands that what P.O. wrote has been discounted to a certain degree with the use of todays chrono's "de-lying". P.O. DID say that some of the data was calculated, some actual, and people see what they WANT to see.

Mr. Barsness has proven several times and written about the difference in additional case capacity giving about 1/4% more velocity gain, so anyone can pretty much calculate what the additional velo gain would be...AT THE SAME PRESSURE...but how many keep the apple and oranges separated?

A 5% gain in case volume gives about 1.25% more velocity...ROUGHLY SPEAKING...

My data shows roughly 71gr for the Whelen, 75 for the Whelen Imp, 76 for the B-W. My calculator gives between ~5 to 7% to almost 8.5% for your 350PDK difference...give or take a couple decimal places and depending on HOW you do the calculations... ...you know, keeping it in the "Best" light...

A 35 Whelen will do from 2400-2600 fs with a 250 gr bullet from several reloading manuals...

Using the Barsness forumula that would be a ~2.5%(at 10% increase in case volume) increase in velocity or 60-65fs...real world in TODAYS numbers...at the SAME PRESSURE, roughly 52KCUP.

You're proud of you wildcat, Ramrod, and rightly so...PO was proud of his...but this is a different age with different powders and technology...APPLES AND ORANGES AGAIN.

In todays world I WOULDN'T muck about with the B-W. Moving the shoulder forward is frought with dangerous implications unless done carefully...blowing shoulders forward is dangerous in ANY cartridge...because of the possibility of an excess headspace condition on the second firing...PO himself talked about that...I've seen it happen once and it took a second fireforming load to get a fully formed case.

A standard 35 W AI wildcat is much easier to do, gives approximately the same ballistics as the B-W realworld, has been done countless times and is an excellent proposition...

BUT...there are much better cases to choose from today if you want more whack, such as the already being worked on/done 35 Ruger, that will work through a 30-06 length action with little or no more work than required to doing a AI version with MUCH more capacity to work with.

You can even get similar case capacities with the RCM and WSM cases in a short action and the 35 WSM has been around for quite a while.

For the miniscule amount of gain over the standard Whelen...unless you just want to say "I got a 35 Brown-Whelen", I would pick the larger cases and REALLY get a gain...

Isn't that the reason for wildcatting in the first place...getting more slam for your dollar.

Hey...it's all fun doing wildcats and talking/dreaming...until the hoohaw starts.

Luck

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You're proud of you wildcat, Ramrod, and rightly so

Foobar, If I came across as trying to say my PDK was better than the BW etc that is far from what I meant. Take the BW make the shoulder .46 move ti forward to 2.17 and make it 40deg and you have my case.

Only thing I was trying to say was I never saw the gains claimed for the BW even with a larger case.

I started my PDKs after reading the various AI claims 30+ years ago. After years of different calibers testing many of the same barrels in STD, AI, and my PDK sometimes using pressure equipment for the most part I found in the 06 based cases a 1 for 4% velocity for capacity increase just like you stated. I spent years and $$$ to prove to myself evidently what Barsness had already published.

I shoot my PDKs and other various wildcats just because I can. Can any of the factory chambers do 95-99% of the same. You bet. I like to be different and it makes great campfire discussions.

I think if a guy is going to build a rifle he needs to build it however and in what chambering he wants. All I try to do is add my real word gain results.

Bottomline we are saying exactly the same thing only I think you said it better.

One thing I might add is that I use the quoted book on cartridge conversion a lot, but you really, really need to cross check wherever you can. It is likely the most error prone source I have. Much of the data is simply wrong, particularly the case volume data. I used to trust COTW when the original editor was alive, but the last several issues has a ton of Quickload data included, and I have always considered that to be pretty untrustworthy except from a preliminary planning standpoint.

That never crossed my mind, Ramrod, and not sure if I said it any better...sorry if I sounded prickly...not meant to be, and I agree with you...a guy has to spend money and go nutz with this wildcat thing only to find "the rest of the story".

I agree...85% of the shooting public can get along perfectly with a "standard" cartridge, be it factory or custom...the other 15% are not happy unless we are fiddling with something you can't buy and sometimes doesn't last long enough to get a good group out of before a rifle becomes a shotgun.

Ive been looking at the 6.5 offerings as my latest 6mm-284 is looking "not so very good". I like the 6.5 Creedmore case design fairly well so compared it to the 260 Rem...then ran the numbers for a 260 "imp" with the same dimentional relations and shoulder angle...came up with an additional 4 gr H20...THEN started looking at ALL the other "alreadybendone" 6.5's and found the 6.5 Redding...exactly the same dimensions I used...AND a couple dozen more just as good...and the 6.5 x 55 Swede has the same volume, but just a bit longer...I have two of those...already.

I already had a 264 WM way back when they first came out that lasted not much more than ~700 rounds so the problem returns to "do I do another 6.5, which one, find a "tweener", between 50 and 75 gr case capacity, pick a new case to wildcat and why bother"

That "wildcat bug" sure caused me a bunch of headaches...but also great pleasures...over the years. I can't look at a new cartridge offering without mentally necking it up and down as far a possible.

If I ever hit the Lotto I would end my life plugged into a CNC mill/lathe cutting a chamber, turning a contour or expire on my shooting bench pulling the trigger on some un-named wildcat...hahahahahahaha

OOOHHHhh Art...hushyomouf...talking bad about QT...don't you know that QT is Gospel...the debl is sho' to gicha. hahahahah You're right tho' and Load from a Disk, Powley online calculators and iterations are just as questionable...Oh, man...did I say that?

I think the best that can be done is when you develope a wildcat and post data, you specify the case, brand and volume at a specific trimmed length...and the load data with a specific bullet, powder, primer combo with a velo determined by a specific chrono WITH the pertinent barometric/temp/altitude/etc data...

Better yet...don't post ANY data as it can/is mis-interpreted and mis-used...but WHO does that.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
One thing I might add is that I use the quoted book on cartridge conversion a lot, but you really, really need to cross check wherever you can. It is likely the most error prone source I have. Much of the data is simply wrong, particularly the case volume data. I used to trust COTW when the original editor was alive, but the last several issues has a ton of Quickload data included, and I have always considered that to be pretty untrustworthy except from a preliminary planning standpoint.

I found what I post about case capacity pretty close to the cases I have for the 35 Whelen and 35 WhelenAI. I'm sure what I posted about the 35 BW be pretty close.

In Ackley book on the 35 WhelenAI they gave two twist and you have a gain of about 5% over in loads and velocity for the standard Whelen. they gave no loading data.

On the 35 Brown Whelen the write up wasn't too kind quote for the article "It is doubtful if it is as practical as either the Improved Whelen or short 35 Mag but it appeals to shooters who feel that they have to use the 06 case and still almost get mag velocity"

I think the big things with the 35 BW is claims of 70gr/IMR-4320 with 220 bullet @ 2900fps or 71gr/IMR-4350 with 250gr bullet @ 2700fps. They had a load for a 300gr bullet and I seen a deal on Hawk site about those loads
http://www.z-hat.com/Handloader193.htm

I'm sure the Local QL police force have fun with what I posted. wish I could be around to see them but wife and I drew archery deer tags starts next Sat so I'm leaving in few hrs set up camp do alittle scouting. Grouse starts Spt 1 so get little of that in plus some fishing.

quote:

I'm sure the Local QL police force have fun with what I posted. wish I could be around to see them but wife and I drew archery deer tags starts next Sat so I'm leaving in few hrs set up camp do alittle scouting. Grouse starts Spt 1 so get little of that in plus some fishing.

Good luck on your hunt.

I had seen the postings on Z-hat before. I'll bite the bullet. QL says those velocities are possible with those powders and bullets. Even assuming a 24" barrel. I didn't see the length in the article. Actually I had to reduce the burn rates on the powders to drop from the forcasted velocity to the ones in the article. That also pulled the pressures down to under 63,000. The loads are 109-111% capacity. Would take a drop tube etc but doable.

Took the same bullet loaded the 35 Whelen to the same pressure with the same powder results in basically the same copression and you loose about 75fps in forecasted velocity.

Anyway have a great trip.

My comment about the conversion book was not concerning this topic, but a generic one. For instance, I just bought an Argentine Rolling Block in .43 Spanish and was starting to develop some loads. I checked the dimensions of all the "43" caliber chamberings and the 45-70, looking for a starting point. The rim thickness data for the Spanish round was incorrect (listing measurement correct for the 43 Mauser)and the volume data was all over the map (and wrong, since I had measured them). Worse was that the relative numbers, compared to better known cases, was off.
I like the book as a source of history and case supply, but you really have to be careful of the data.

For those who are interested...HANDLOADER MAGAZINE #187, June 1997 has an article by Richard Conrad on the .35 Brown-Whelen, a Cartridge Board by Gil Sengel on the 35 Whelen and the article on Case Capacity and Velocity by John Barsness...a genuine three-fer.

This is an imperfect world and no matter how hard we try we all make faux pas...EVERYTHING in this game has a plus/minus range including weight scales, eyeballs, components and the printed word.

Luck