The closest I have come to a dbl. shoulder wildcat was in forming my brass for the.30 Gibbs. Open the neck to .35 then size mouth back to .30 giving it the dbl. neck then fireform.
Saeed, please keep us posted. I for one am interested in the development. Just for grins as I have done this forever myself (reinventing the wheel) what improvements are you trying to attain beyond Parker's work on a 25 cal bullet in a 308 case. Do you think that a dbl shoulder will increase performance over the A.I. 40 degree shoulder? As I say, in all honesty, I am looking forward to the results.
Originally posted by Saeed: Frankly, I don’t see any improvements whatsoever.
I am doing it as an experiment.
I have done enough testing on all sorts of things which were supposed to make a lot of difference, sadly, in my experiments there were none.
But, I enjoyed doing them.
Clearly a case of "I do it because I am curious and because I can." To the extent of my meager resources, I can fully relate, Saeed. I, too am interested in the results of your experiment.
Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member
Posts: 7503 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 15 October 2013
A good enough answer that I can fully understand. Over the years I have come with cartridge designs (ala a better mousetrap) then would look in my P.O. Ackley books + damned if he didn't do it 30 years sooner.
Saeed, I seem to remember you doing this one other time when first chambering your own Rifles...something about predrilling the chamber too deep and doing just this...and if I remember correctly the rifle in question still shot very well!
Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt
Posts: 1190 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 19 July 2001
Herter was "out front" on many things for show. He was a "showman." If I recall it was in his books he put forth the idea that the double shoulder would create turbulance in the cartridge as the powder burns and slow the pressure build up and permit hotter loads safely... Seems Rocky Gibbs felt the same way about his sharp shoulders. Enough to be "worth it?" Since no one else, per Mr. Ackley's books, picked up the idea, I am forced to doubt. Mr. Keith wrote of demonstrating, at an armory in the Rockies, that he could use two different powders in the .50 cal Browning machine gun cartridge and get another 200 feet per second velocity, no small feet with a 750 grain bullet. Management acknowledged his accomplishment and immediately "shelved it" because there was no way they could get the material handlers to be gentle with the ammunition, the powders would get mixed, and that meant dangerous pressures. !! A lot out there but not extremely practical. Luck.
Originally posted by iiranger: Herter was "out front" on many things for show. He was a "showman." If I recall it was in his books he put forth the idea that the double shoulder would create turbulance in the cartridge as the powder burns and slow the pressure build up and permit hotter loads safely... Seems Rocky Gibbs felt the same way about his sharp shoulders. Enough to be "worth it?" Since no one else, per Mr. Ackley's books, picked up the idea, I am forced to doubt. Mr. Keith wrote of demonstrating, at an armory in the Rockies, that he could use two different powders in the .50 cal Browning machine gun cartridge and get another 200 feet per second velocity, no small feet with a 750 grain bullet. Management acknowledged his accomplishment and immediately "shelved it" because there was no way they could get the material handlers to be gentle with the ammunition, the powders would get mixed, and that meant dangerous pressures. !! A lot out there but not extremely practical. Luck.
Please read Keith's books, "Sixguns" or "Hell I was There". This story is NOT correct though it has circulated since the 50's. Keith's "Duplex" load did NOT have two different powders, it had a tube to take the primer explosion to the top of the powder column, similar to many artillery shells. This caused the powder to burn from the top down, keeping the burning powder in the case instead of getting blown down the barrel where individual granules end up NOT burning. Problem is fitting the tube to the case, tricky machining and ends up fairly fragile and very easy to damage when de-priming for reloaders. Keith worked it out with the 333 & 334 OKH wildcats in the 30's, then when he was a govt inspector at the Ogden Armory during WWII he demonstrated it for the Army. The tricky machining to fit the tube had the Army not picking it up for production.
Posts: 421 | Location: Broomfield, CO, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
Originally posted by matt salm: Saeed, I seem to remember you doing this one other time when first chambering your own Rifles...something about predrilling the chamber too deep and doing just this...and if I remember correctly the rifle in question still shot very well!
You are right.
I ran the drill into the barrel too far.
It was supposed to go as far as the body goes, but somehow it went a bit further.
The first fired case came out with a double shoulder.
I left it as is, and shot it a few times.
Shot very well, but, as there were no dies for it, I rechamberd it properly.
Perhaps it might be useful for supporting long for caliber bullets. Such as those used for long range shooting? It would prevent a long spindly case neck. Once fire formed it might also prove effective in helping to center the case in the chamber. Provided you only neck sized the upper portion.
quote:
Originally posted by Smokin Joe: Nope. No rhyme or reason for it. Just a Herter's novelty.
Posts: 3863 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002
The 25 caliber in a standard necked down 308 case is the 25 Souper, what would you call one with a double shoulder?
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
Posts: 12818 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002
I have spent way too much of my time over the years trying to design a NEW superior calibre ala a better mousetrap. It is fun for a time but pointless in the end. Oh well, since we have to spend our time doing something; might as well be something semi-intelligent.
I have an 8x57R Johann Springer double rifle (which was rebarreled by Carl Bock) that has a double shoulder - both barrels exactly the same. Not as exaggerated as the Herter’s cartridge but definitely obvious and not accidental I’d think.
I’ve toyed with the idea of having JJ rechamber to an 8x60R or some improved 8x57 to take the double shoulder out but it shoots just fine as is. I could see, as Bobster mentions, that a secondary shoulder, or more correctly, a secondary neck, could help center the cartridge into the bore. Not that normal necks don’t also do that, but the stepped design may offer more points of concentricity in the chamber (?)
Back in 1982 I purchased a Ruger 77-R heavy barreled rifle in 6mm Remington. Ammo being hard to find and me being cheap, I shortened a quantity of 7.62 blanks and reamed/resized them to hold the 6mm bullet. The double shoulder had them headspace properly and, loaded with an 75 to 85 grain bullet and fire formed, these made passable 6mm brass.
Posts: 277 | Location: Newton, MS | Registered: 08 August 2005
