How about the 405 win necked down to .30 cal with a 40 deg shoulder and .30" neck length? Put that one in a P14 enfield action with a 1917 enfield 30-06 mag box. Feed rails should work as is?
Comments are welcome.
Posts: 281 | Location: MN | Registered: 27 May 2001
It will actuall hold about 3 gr. less than the 30-06 and 3 gr. more than the 303 epps. What I'm looking to do it make a rimmed cartridge for the patern 14 enfield that won't require feed rail work and get's away from the .311 bore and it's lack of bullet selection.
Posts: 281 | Location: MN | Registered: 27 May 2001
Quote: except the .405 case is over 1/4" longer than the .303 brit. .290" I believe.
No, the 375/303 was the 375 Flanged N.E. necked down to take standard .303 bullets of 215 gn. This "375 Flanged" is straight walled and shares the same head as the .303 British service round. It was 2.5" long, just shy of the .405. The 375/303 ran at .30-06 pressures and launched the 215 gn bullet at a (claimed) 2500 fps.
Compared to your proposed wildcat, the 375/303 was a few hundredths of an inch shorter, had a rim a few thousandths thinner, and had shoulders a bit narrower. Your wildcat would be simpler to form (no rim thinning), but 375/303 dies and reamers are available without custom charges -- and the selection of .308 bullets is much better than for .311 bullets. Woodleigh makes bullets for the 375/303.
Posts: 980 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: 01 June 2003
The 405 Winchester necked to .308" is called the 30-40 Krag these days - orginally it was just called the 30 Govt. Just like what is stamped on those old Winchester Model 1895 rifles. Yes, the 30-40 has a long neck (nice for cast bullets) and fairly long shoulder, but if you want to fully "improve" it with almost straight case walls and short neck you'll end up close to a 30-06 in capacity.
Posts: 421 | Location: Broomfield, CO, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
Quote: The 405 Winchester necked to .308" is called the 30-40 Krag these days
Chronologically, of course, the .405 was a blown out .30 US. Indeed, if you buy .405 brass from Buffalo Arms, this is what you'll get, complete with a .30-40 R-P headstamp.
Given that the supply of .405 has never been all one could hope for, I can agree with your suggestion to blow out the .30-40 instead of necking down the .405. The base brass is far cheaper, too.
.303 brass is a little heavier than the .30-40. I think it a better choice yet, and it is a bit less expensive, too. Comparing it to the proposed .30-.405 wildcat is like comparing the .308 to the .30-06: not much difference.
Posts: 980 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: 01 June 2003
If you're looking for a wildcat on a .405 case why not take that P14/17 action and put a long throated barrel, chambered for the .405. The you would have a .405 Super.
The 300 grain bullet is, obviously a little shorter. However, if you look at bands on the bullet you will see that you will be able to crimp the 360 gr. in a number of places. Being able to do this will allow you to conserve as much powder space as possible.
With the right powder you should get some extremely powerful loads.
I have suggested this because it is exactly what I am having done. I should receive my rifle by the end of this month. I am hoping for exactly what I have written about. What I am hoping for in velocity is about 2,300 - 2,400 fps. with this bullet. My gunsmith said that because of the way the bullet is made I may be able to get a little more. (I don't want a little more - all I want is 2,350 fps. with great accuracy.)
The way you wrote your post I wasn't sure if you were set on a .375/405 or were just looking for something different.
Good Shooting,
Smoker
Posts: 178 | Location: Pennsylvania - USA | Registered: 17 September 2003
My mistake on the nomenclature of the 375/303. I am used to refering to wildcats with bore diameter first and parent case last as in .30-338 (.30 bore) .338-06 (.338 bore) 6.5-284 (6.5/.264 bore) as also 6.5-06, 30-378 etc, etc, etc.........!!! Please excuse my ingnorance. Ignorance IS bliss and apperently I am quite blissful. In the mean time I understand that any idea I might come up with has been done 1000 times before and a 1000 times better. That is why I'm working for the "man" instead of running the ODDBALL computer software company. The wildcats that I propose are not really meant for mass consumption but rather to come up with a solution to a problem that is unique to me and my situation. After all, how much is it a wildcat if everyone has one? Are the catridges listed above really wildcats if everyone has one? Let's all be different just like everybody else. My contention is that when you call the Clymer reamer co. and ask for a reamer that they have in stock it is not a wildcat. It has been standardized by somebody. Maybe not A-square or Remington. Why does it take some corporation to tell us what is standard? Now I am on a rant and I gotta go.
Posts: 281 | Location: MN | Registered: 27 May 2001
Smoker, I like the way you're thinking here. The idea is to take a rimmed case and expand it to maximum potential in the P14 action while keeping it in the deer/elk range. Staying away from the belted magnums and keeping the feed rail mods to a minimum and staying inside the 3.340" magazine length.
Posts: 281 | Location: MN | Registered: 27 May 2001
You have me almost right. A 360 gr. North Fork bullet at 2,350 would put you in the largest bear that ever lived category (and most other game...anywhere) - within 200 yards. On a P14 action with a P17 mag. I (you) will be able to load bullets way out in the case.
A word of explanation: I use peep sights - 200 yards is my maximum shooting distance and 2,350 fps with a 360 gr. bullet is all I would ever need for anything in N. America.
The brass is cheap, bullets will be available and all the reloading dies are readily available. There will be no forming of cases and I (you) will have sort-of-wildcat. Certainly unique!
Take care,
Smoker
Posts: 178 | Location: Pennsylvania - USA | Registered: 17 September 2003
Actually a necked up 30-40 Krag is a little short of the 2.58" case length of a 405 Win. Necking up the ol' Krag will leave one over 0.1" short as a matter of fact.
The 405 Winchester is a unique case, which shares the same basic case as the older 30-40 Krag.
I do not doubt someone was selling necked up 30-40 Krag brass and stating it was "405 Winchester" brass. Necked up 30-40 Krag brass will work just fine, by the way, it is just short (so you lose a few grains of case capacity which isn't a big deal if one is only after 2250 fps with a 300 gr pill)
Just wanted to clear up that little inaccuracy.
Scott
Posts: 1662 | Location: USA | Registered: 27 November 2003
The brass Buffalo Arms sells begins with a .30-40, but (I believe) they draw it again. The final length is correct, at a bit over 2.5", indicating they draw an extra 0.2" out of the Krag. Nonte's book recommends such a draw is reasonable and can be done at home. B.A. also shears the rim a bit to move the outer portion forward, giving the proper 0.070" nominal rim thickness, about 10% thicker than the Krag. All in all, I'm surprised they can make these changes and be competitive in price with Hornady's new stuff.
Posts: 980 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: 01 June 2003
Actually, A 405 Winchester isn't a hair over 2.5". It is 2.580 inches, which is approximately 27 average hairs over 2.5". (the average human hair measures 0.003")
I have no complaints with Hornady brass, and would use that before I used extensively reworked Krag brass. A few years ago I could understand the "need" to rework Krag brass, but I don't get it now.
Scott
Posts: 1662 | Location: USA | Registered: 27 November 2003
What about using the 9.3x74R case. The rim is slightly smaller in diameter (0.526") compared to the .405W (0.543") and .303 British (0.540") but I would imagine that this wouldn't be a problem in a P14 action. The big plus of the 9.3x74R, for your project, is the much longer case (2.941")which should give you plenty to 'play' with. In fact, considering the size of the cartridges that you can chamber M17s for(such as .505 Gibbs) I wonder if you couldn't build a bolt action 9.3x74R on a P14 with an M17 magazine box! Or maybe a 9.3x74R Improved!!!!
A necked down 9.3x74R case would have a lot of potential. For example, the 8x75R (which is a necked down 9.3x74R) provides performance, according to Barnes Cartridges of the World, equivalent to the .300H&H.
Posts: 909 | Location: Blackheath, NSW, Australia | Registered: 26 May 2002
Yes, I knew the 405 Win (2.58") brass is a bit longer than the 30-40 (2.31") that it was based on, so is the other member of this family, the 35 Winchester (2.41"). But being a bit short doesn't matter that much. The neck doesn't get quite the same grip on the bullet as a full length case would have, but it's still more than enough for proper operation as the bullets can still be seated to normal OAL. Both of the later calibers (35 & 405 win) based on the 30-40 were developed to simply use bigger diameter and heavier bullets in the Model 1895 Winchester rifle. Winchester engineers made the cases as big as possible and still feed properly, but they couldn't make them much bigger as the action had been designed for the 30-40 round.
Really the odd thing about this family of cartridges is how close to the British 303 (2.21") they are in size; when the U.S. was supposedly coming up with it's own cartridge design. Of course the same could be said of the later 30-03(2.54")/30-06(2.49") and the 8x57mm (2.24) Mauser cartridge. It's nice though that you can so easily change your rifle by just replacing/re-boring the barrel, instead of having to re-work the bolt face and magazine to feed properly.
Posts: 421 | Location: Broomfield, CO, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
Speaking of building a .405 Win on a P-14 action...
For the last 15 years or so, I have been shooting a .405 Win built by putting an original Win M95 barrel on an '03 Springfield action. Had a heck of time getting accuracy from it until I tried Barnes-X bullets in it....was about a 4"-5" group shooter but with the Barnes X 300 gr. bullet will shoot MOA or slightly better.
BTW, found the same sort of improvement when I went from Barnes "original" bullets in my .404 Jeffrey to the 350 gr. Barnes-X. Am now a pretty solid fan of the Barnes-X in big bores for which they are available. They also don't copper-foul the barrels of my bigger Bore rifles anything like as much as conventional bullets do. (That last is very contrary to what I had expected to experience.)
AC
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001
I'm having a .405 built on a Winchester P14 action. I'm hoping to get good accuracy and velocity from the 360 gr., North Fork bullet.
Would you like to share any of your load data? I've been in a quandary trying to figure out where to start and with what powder. I've been thinking about RL-15. I know it's a slow powder, however, I'm hoping that the increased weight will help burn the powder more completely in the 28 in. barrel.
Any thoughts or comments?
Good Shooting,
Smoker
Posts: 178 | Location: Pennsylvania - USA | Registered: 17 September 2003
Now that Hornady is loading for the 405, cases are cheap. A hell of a lot cheaper than they used to be from Bertram. Also, the Hornady cases are cleaner looking than the Bertram cases and they come nicely annealed from the factory.
Posts: 852 | Location: Austin | Registered: 24 October 2003
(the average human hair measures 0.003")
