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Has anyone seen or heard of a .300 Winchester Short Mag necked up to .375? Any information would be interesting. I'm thinking short-action, handy, efficient, BG rifle that would make minimum for DG such as Cape Buffalo in a pinch; perhaps using a Model 70 Classic action. | ||
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I would not place faith in any of the WSM based cartridges chambered in a bolt action DGR for use on dangerous game.. The WSMs have feeding issues in alot of different actions including the Win 70. You could have 'smith go over it but there would still be more potential for jamming than better suited cartridges such as the 375H&H. If you wanted a short DGR cartridge, then consider one of the proven belted mag shorts such as the 450 Marlin or the 350RM necked up to 375 (375/350RM). Its your life, why risk it? MtnHtr | |||
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it's the 375 jamison, or, in a longer package, the 376 steyr. both great rounds. Myself, and I have, I would do it in 376 performance is right at factory 375 hh velocities. feeding issues are gunsmithing challenges, not failures of a round. jeffe | |||
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Quote: Tell that to all the PHs over on the Africa Forum, I dare ya. Or better yet, update your insurance premiums the next time you build a WSM based DGR for a customer. The wise hunter prepares for the worst case scenario when hunting dangerous game.................. MtnHtr | |||
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John, Jack... can YOU guys get a wsm to feed reliably? jeffe | |||
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Jeff, any gunsmith can make the WSM case feed from a single stack magazine or from a rotary magazine. It's just not an issue. It's the hacks that try to strong-arm a modern case into an archaic magazine concept that you have to worry about. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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I would LOVE one of these. Or even a .35 caliber one. Not even for DG either, but for NA hunting. But since there isn't one, I'll probably just get a .375 H&H and load it down instead. It's much easier to just buy a safari caliber and load it down than to go build a custom wildcat and a semi-custom gun to get the same ballistics. Only savings is powder. | |||
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I have a 375-caliber built on a necked-up Lazzeroni Patriot case (30-cal) and it feeds fine from a staggered magazine. Lazzeroni calls it the 9.53 Hellcat and I suspect it holds just a bit more poweder than the 300WSM necked up to .375. I know it is "shorter & fatter" than the WSMs. I can get 2600+ fps with a 300gr Nosler (23" barrel) but don't like the recoil----much more pleasant to shoot at around 2525 to 2550 fps. Performance in Africa was outstanding....kudu, buffalo, warthog, zebra, a lot of bait impala were all taken with a single shot....only the zebra which was shot while running moved out of their tracks. Sable was shot more than once but the 1st shot would have been fatal. Leopard needed 2 as first shot was off just a bit....2nd shot was at close range and completely penetrated body front to rear. | |||
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I had a conversation with both Mark Bansner and Charlie Sisk awhile back in regards to building a S/A DGR. Mark stated he has not come across a Win 70 WSM that he could not make feed reliably. When I pressed him about using a WSM based wildcat for a DGR, he then changed his tune and was quick to reply there are far better case designs available that were condusive to feeding reliablity. In other words, for a DGR, Mark felt there are better candidates than the WSMs or WSM wildcats. When I asked Charlie Sisk about the same subject, he felt it could be done but like Mark felt it would not be the best or wisest choice. He stated Paul Mauser designed his bolt action around the 8mm Mauser round specifically for feeding reliablity during the heat of the battle. He also stated the further you deviate from that case design, the more abrupt angles come into play and things like feeding reliabilty become an issue. Myself, I'd much rather be toting a DGR in a "proven" cartridge rather than a a WSM based cartridge that already has a spotty record for feeding. Maybe a gunmaker will step up to the plate and build an action specifically for the WSMs,(Ruger and Kimber come to mind) but until then........ MtnHtr | |||
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interesting.. I know Charlie.. great guy, and can build a rifle that would feed 4"x.75" square faced cylinders... all the things you said are true... and apply in spades to things like the entire weatherby line ,hich, all over evils about them, feed great... with a belt the belt is about a fur from the 8x57 .we won't go back on paul's designs, now will we, and look at the larger rounds he and his brother designed for various actions. and yep... paul designed THAT PARTICULAR geometry for that action for that round... and with some applied geometry, all others feed as well. Your stipulation that it's not reliable is the same that was heard around the world when the belt came out... because the 404 and 416 did the same thing.. without a belt. it's new, people have to learn... and if it don't feed, it's STILL the gunsmith's issue or an even MORE outrageous change to a rifle... a 348 m71 to a 50 alaskan... it sure nuff feeds... It's purely a question of the smith's skill.. and, having done a few feeding jobs myself, i know EXACTLY how hard it is to get a 500 jeffery to feed from a 30-06 action, it's WORK, it's TIME , it's MONEY.. and it FEEDs just first hand experience here jeffe | |||
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Jeffe, We are talking feed angles, case diameters and to some extent, case lengths here. No mention of the belt here so don't go there, its not the same stipulation. You're really good at putting garbage in my mouth and adding content, I thought we could agree on something? I guess these two 'smiths and myself have some "learning" to do....... according to you!  MtnHtr | |||
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Like I said, I know Charlie.. I also know some of the guys he askes questions to. I aint charlie... he's 100 times the smith i'll ever be. You ARE right, it's a question of changing the action to fit the round. It can be done, and is done by those willing to do it. Just like the belted round. I don't think I put words in your mouth, I just finished your point. If fact, it was you that brought mauser into, rather than a model 70 that's DESIGNED for it. Ask Charlie if he CAN do it, 100% reliable.. he'll tell you yes, it'll cost $$$. Plain and simple. The BELT does matter, it completely changes the feeding flow... there's no belt on a 8x57 is there? But the 300 and 375 HH are LEGENDARY for smooth feeding IN MAUSERS. So, where do you put the "it can't be done line?" .473? .500? .525? .535? .550? .640? Are you honestly telling me John Rigby can't make a 500 jeffery feed in a mauser? Ah, but he did.. and not just in mag mausers (mauser changed for a round)... How about schuler? he did it in standard length mausers... it's a personal PREFERNCE to not use the wsm round... and some technical reasons that have ZERO to do with feeding.. more like PRESSURE and NOSTALIA So, Mtnhtr, the simple facts are that just about ANYTHING can be made to feed in a mauser, much less an action that is designed for the round. Take a savage in any wsm, rebarrel and DO THE FEEDING and it will be better than any factory gun. Or, as one poster so apply has in his tag line "if it don't feed it's JUNK" Jeffe (who's DONE the work himself) | |||
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Quote: Jeffe, You need to give it a rest, biting off more than you can chew is going to make you tired. I apologise if I offended you by expressing my opinion on this forum. Get some rest, you need it. MtnHtr | |||
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Whatever, Mtnhtr... I see you are practiced at the art of dodging issues, and merely fall to "name calling" "you've bitten off more than you can chew" seems to be your phrase So, let's make it really simple, and I am willing to wait a couple days for your answers, as it seems to take you awhile to formulate one. 1: do you realize the person asking the question wants to put this in a model 70, and not a m98? (this is a yes/not question) 2: in the example about, where do YOU draw the line that a round can't be feed? Your initial statements made it clear that you think only the 8x57 will feed from a mauser action. This is a simpe 0.XXX dimension question. 3: have you ever done your own feeding work? 4: do you realize that MAUSERS have been made from 22 hornet to 500 jeffery? Facts, fella.. facts, not opinions | |||
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Why not get an action built for the fatter case? The McMillan Short MCR-T comes to mind as it will handle the Rigby case-head size without modification. | |||
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Quote: Jeffe, Your quotes: "I see you are practiced at the art of dodging issues, and merely fall to "name calling" "you've bitten off more than you can chew" seems to be your phrase" Where in my posts did I call you names? List the name I called you? Next question by Jeffe: "1: do you realize the person asking the question wants to put this in a model 70, and not a m98? (this is a yes/not question)" My answer is yes. Read my first reply on this thread: "The WSMs have feeding issues in alot of different actions including the Win 70.< !--color-->" Question #2 by Jeffe: "2: in the example about, where do YOU draw the line that a round can't be feed? Your initial statements made it clear that you think only the 8x57 will feed from a mauser action. This is a simpe 0.XXX dimension question." I was quoting what Charlie Sisk told me regarding the 8X57 Mauser. Can't you comprehend? I clearly posted "He also stated the further you deviate from that case design, the more abrupt angles come into play and things like feeding reliabilty become an issue." Next question by Jeffe: "3: have you ever done your own feeding work?" Yes I have, the last action being the exact action (Win 70 WSM) you have brought up. Last question by Jeffe: ": do you realize that MAUSERS have been made from 22 hornet to 500 jeffery" Yes, so whats the point? Does that make the Mauser the "best" choice for all or some of these rounds?" The poster of this thread was asking for opinions and I gave him my opinion on his idea. You Jeffe, have chosen to attack my opinion and turn this thread into a pissing contest. You seem hell bent on proving yourself as a "qualified" 'smith who is the final authority on the subject. Here's another fine example of one your diatribes: "I don't think I put words in your mouth, I just finished your point. If fact, it was you that brought mauser into, rather than a model 70 that's DESIGNED for it". Here is fact(since you accuse me of opinions and not facts): The Win 70 S/A Classic was not designed for the WSM cartridges, it was designed for 308Win based cartridges. When the Win 70 WSM models were being drawn up, the engineers merely made a few changes to the 308 based models to the boltface, extractor, bolt stop, ejector, feed rail dimensions, mag follower, spring and ejection port. In other words, they merely modified the 308 based Win 70 S/A. The action was originally designed for the 308Win class cartridges, NOT the WSM cartridges. Can you comprehend that? Recently, Ruger and Kimber took a different approach and redesigned their actions to accomodate the WSM class cartridges. In fact, one of the former engineers from Winchester helped Kimber design their new WSM action. This is not rocket science, I was merely suggesting in my first post on this thread where I posted that: " You could have 'smith go over it but there would still be more potential for jamming than better suited cartridges such as the 375H&H" Mark Bansner and Charlie Sick feel there are better choices than a cartridge based on the WSM class for use in a DGR. Its that simple and I make no apologies to you if you cannot comprehend those opinions (Mark & Charlie's) or mine. MtnHtr | |||
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Let's get to the heart of the matter, as you aren't not recognizing "biting off more than you can chew" as insulting language. Quote: This EXACTLY applies, per your own statement, that the 98 mauser was designed for the 8 mauser. And your example is a PERFECT example (308) for a mauser.. it was designed 60 years (yeah, check facts.. the x57 case has been kicking around since about 1890)... it's NOT designed for a mauser action, but it feeds just fine. Now, since engineers designed this product (model 70 AND mauser), and they have been tweaking it to accomodate EVERYTHING from 22h to 500 jeff (from the factory, i will add) the combined experience outwieghs your opinion. So, since I am setting you to ignore, have fun spreading your opinion as fact, rather than saying the simple fact "some folks get them to work, some dont" Like I said, i know charlie.. he can make it work... if you can't, well, that's a different FACT g/bye jeffe | |||
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Jeffe wrote regarding Charlie Sisk: "I aint charlie... he's 100 times the smith i'll ever be." Thats quite plain to see after reading your diatribes on this thread. You need to get out more.............. MtnHtr | |||
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Quote: aint this grand? jeffe | |||
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Flamed my ass and then slipped out the back door.....damn! MtnHtr | |||
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