Does anyone know of any wildcats built on necked down 45/70 cases? The only one I'm aware of is the .416 Barnes. I've often thought that a range of cartridges could be developed to suit a switch barrel Marlin 1895 and give superior performance to the 30/30, 375 Win, 7-30 Waters, etc.

I've no doubt this has all been done before but I'm unable to find info on it.

RJW

I'm working on this exact project now. I am gonna base them off of a 348 win case though. thinking of a two barrel set in 50 alaskan and 30/348 ack imp. will push a 180 gr bullet at 2700. Email if you are interested.

RJW--

Now this is truly funny!!!

The necked down wildcat 45-70 is the 33 Winchester. It came out in 1902 and lasted about thirty years. Offered in the M-85 SS and the M-86 lever action.

[ 03-16-2003, 05:03: Message edited by: JBelk ]

I had thought about necking down a 45-70 case to .375 sort of a 375 Winchester on steroids.
Jim

Jack's right I have a 33 and its the best dam bear gun going for blackies,that action is so smooth it all most works itself.

ark, why? the 375JDJ and its twins will do every thing that combo will

Thanks for all your replys,

I'd forgotten about the 33Win. Fact is, I dont think I've ever seen a cartridge or a rifle for it in Australia. I don't doubt that it would be a great short range performer.

My idea is to neck down 45/70 to 7mm, .30, .35, and .375. The cartridges would all use currently available flat nose bullets. Basically the shoulder position and angle would be the same on all cartridges (around 20 degrees) so feeding shouldn't be a problem if a barrel is changed.

I prefer to use a cheap, commonly available cartridge as a base. Some of the rarer cases like 348, 444, etc are bloody expensive and hard to find in Australia. There are lots of Marlin 45/70's and 45/70 cases around however.

I expect cartridges like the 375JDJ et al would probably outperform but once again I like the idea of cheap base cartridges. I thought the JDJ cartridges were mostly designed for single shot pistols. I want a series of cartridges that will function flawlessly in a levergun but give the user some degree of flexibility in cartridge choice.

RJW

Ken Waters wrote of the "35 Greevy Express", which is based on the 45-70 case. Rather then using a levergun, as the originator of this wildcat did, he used a Siamese boltgun, so he can test pointed bullets.

Simular, but based on the 450 Marlin case, is the "400 Yukon", a .408" wildcat designed by John Anderson ("El-John-O", at MarlinTalk).

Related, Ken Howell helped me design a wildcat based on a slightly shortened 45-90 case (cut to 2.222 in.), necked to .429", as a means to create a fatter-bodied 444 Marlin. This one is still "on paper" at this point (I sold my 444 to my brother, and need to buy another to continue).
HTH. ~~~Suluuq

I have a friend who has a 45/70 case necked to .338 in a 15 inch Encore handgun. It runs a 180 grain at 2600 and a 200 grain at 2500, as I recall. It is a pretty good handful in that format! shortgun

.375JRS,.30-8MM REM.MAG.,7MM STW,.257 STW,>25-8MM REM. MAG.,8MM REM.MAG. and .416 REM.MAG.
reamers can all be used to cut a wildcat chamber
on the 45/70 case.
All the above mentioned reamers use a 25 degree shoulder.All the above mentioned reamers
will produce a neck that may be shorter than is desireable for a tubluar magazine,but that can be countered by using the smaller based Starline brass or by swageing the base to .500.The neck can then be lengthened with a necking reamer.
For example use the .30-8MM Rem. Mag.reamer,
ream to a shoulder depth of 1.425"then ream neck and freebore an additional .130"for a neck length or .450".The rear of the chamber would measure .505".Every .075 deeper the chamber is cut,the base of the chamber will open up .001".
I used this method to make the .30 HLS CHEAPSKATE using .303 Br.and .35 REM.brass with a shortened .30-06 chamber.
If your application requires a rim recess it can be cut with a singlepoint lathe tool or a piloted counter bore.
WC

Dies may be made by grinding the base of the die set matching the reamer.
WC

Wildcat Crazy---

It's good to see others are willing to use innovative methods to save money. Fun!! ain't it.

I'm starting to wonder if Jack Belk & I are about the same ages?

The very first thing I thought about when I saw the opening post in this thread was the .33 Winchester. And then I read Jack's immediate response, and he's citing the .33 Winchester!

I used to have one of the very few factory M71 Winchesters in .33 Winchester. Made all my brass from .45-70 stock, and began by using the old Herter's 200 gr. .338" RN bullet, Later switched to the Hornady 200 gr. flat-nose bullet. ("Flat-point" is an oxy-moron, isn't it? [G])

The .33 Win, on paper, isn't a great deal better than a good 30-30 170 gr. load...just 30 grs. heavier and 100-200 fps faster. BUT, it sure seemed to kill better in the field. Maybe it was just my imagination, or maybe it was the added diameter of the .338 slug.

Anyway, it is my all time favorite lever action round. Sure do wish when they brought out the most recent series of '86 LWs, they'd have chambered some in the old .33 Win

[ 03-21-2003, 10:32: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Virgin Valley Custom has their line of cartridges based on the 45-70 case. They have the dies and info so you may be able to save yourself some time and money. Shoot them an e-mail. V.V.Dave vists the single shot forum often he will be able to help.

I vote for moving up in size-.475,Both Gary Reeder and SSK due this with the T/C Encore,Gary has a custom Marlin for the 475 GNR. I got the Encore with 14"bbl from Gary.The Marlin comes in 18-22"bbl.

475/ 480 does Gary Reeder have a web site? By the way just placed my order with V.V.Dave for a 470 Nitro was wondering where to get some heavy cast bullets.

[ 03-29-2003, 04:49: Message edited by: outlawsix ]

Gents,
All of you have overlooked the 38-56 Win. I have a Win 1886 so chambered and I looked and looked for factory ammo and came up empty. Looked at RCBS listing and they wanted 400 bucks for forming dies alone. Scary...Looked over a few pages in one of my catalogs and saw Lee dies listed there for the 38-56 and had a set on the way. I sprayed a few cases with dillon case lube,dipped the necks in mica and sent a case up the die in 1/4" steps...about 6-8 strokes later a 38-56 case appeared. I matched it up with an original from a box from waaay back and they are identical for all practical purposes. I use the same method when forming 38-55's from 30-30 brass and 25-35's from 30-30 as well as most of my other wildcats with nary a case lost.
Back to the 38-56 though...I tried a few cast bullets from a Lyman mould that drops @ .376 245grs over 24grs ACC 5744 and while the gun functioned flawlessly every bullet struck sideways @ 25 yards. I then moved to a Meister commercial cast @ .380 same weight and whew,nice round holes My Win 1886 has come back to the life it was meant for. I have $425 invested so far
and expect no more except powder and bullets. A happy camper here. 45nut

reedercustomguns.com is the site,how heavy a bullet I have some .476-425 lfngc,435 wfnpb,460 lfngc,500 lfngc,the 470 nitro is .474 ? 1 or 2 thousands over bore should work good.Also how hard a bullet?My cast bullets are 14 bhn even though i can make them harder if you need some for practice

RJW,
In front of me are 6 45/70 cases necked to .33
caliber.They were necked down in a shortened .338
Win.Mag. die.
They were necked down from 45/70 in one pass.I
necked 8 cases,6 of them came out perfect,two crumpled.
Case length 2.1",base to shoulder 1.645",base dia,.503",shoulder dia. .486" neck length .315,
shoulder angle 25 degrees,case capacity in grs. of water 74 grs.Which is about 1 gr. larger than the .338-06.
The neck may be a triffle short to hold a bullet in a tubular magazine.
It appears to me as if a .33 Win.chamber could be recut with a n 8MM rem.Mag reamer with a larger
pilot.
It would give an 18+ percent increase in capacity over the .33 Win.
As soon as I can find dies I can afford{7MM rem. Mag.,264 Win.Mag.,and .300 Win Mag},I intend
to neck it no down.
I am disabled,so money is not as availible as
it once was,so I must shop more carefully.
If I come up with any thing good I will post it.
I have seen on several forums that there is quite a bit of interest in .45/70 wildcats.
WC

475, where did you get your 500gn 475 mold? I'm working on a 470 NE project and was going to have mountainmolds.com make a 500gn mold for it. I'm waiting on my reamer to show up so he can take measurements off of it.

Ballisti-cast mould,the 425 (#1431)lfngc drilled deeper,I have a 525gr coming from them too,Dan will do a good job to,He is plenty busy though.
Cast performance ,Beartooth bullets for those looking to buy cast bullets

[ 04-25-2003, 17:15: Message edited by: 475/480 ]

One WERY original "Wildcat" comes to mind = 40/65, that's a necked down 45-70. 8x58R Danish can be made from 45-70 brass, but then again it's not a wildcat.

RJW,
This A.M. I was able to obtain a set of used .300 Win. Mag. dies at a price I could afford.
I ground the base of the die to produce a case 1.600" long to the shoulder.The case has the 25 degree shoulder of the .300 Win. Mag. so it should feed ok in a lever gun.
The case at present is 2.100" long,which includes a neck about .335 long. The chamber neck would have to be lengthened with a necking reamer
since the .300 Mag neck is only.282 long.
C.O.L.is 2.572" with the 150 gr. bullet I seated in the case.
The case could be shortened another .025- .040
without causing any problems.
At the present the case will hold 58 grs. of 3031 uncompressed with the 150 gr. RN bullet seated.A 308 Win. with the same bullet will hold 43 grs. of 3031.This is a 34+ percent increase in powder capacity.The 30-30 will hold 33 grs of 3031 with the same bullet.

The project you ask about is doable without breaking the bank.
WC

RJW; If that sort of brass is so hard to find down there why don't you order bulk brass from Midway or someone like that to help support your endeavours. Just a thought, but maybe the shipping would be a killer. derF

has anybody built a gun yet to suit these cartridges?

Rock

I designed the 30-45/70 so that a 30/30 or .308 Win. chamber would clean up.The .300 Win. Mag reamer is used.

I have access to a NEF Handi-Rifle to rechamber.

I probably won't do anything till fall as I have too many irons in the fire in the summer.

I did a .30 CHEAPSKATE using the same concept with .303 Br. brass and the 30-06 chamber shortened.I also have .44 mag sized in the 6.55x55
die to fit the shortened 6.5x55 chamber.It has a case capacity of 28 grs. of water.Sort of a 6.5 Whisper type cartridge.

WC

WC,

I did a similar exercise to you the other week. I had some cheap Lee 300 Win Mag dies and shortened them in an attempt to reduce 45-70 brass down. It wasn't altogether successful. Going from .458 to .308 in one pass was always going to be a big ask. I then made some forming dies from 7/8x14 threaded rod and in a few stages necked down the brass to create a 30-70 of similar dimensions to what you described in your earlier post. I also made a 416-70, 375-70, 35-70 and 7mm-70. All these have the same shoulder position and angle(25 degrees). The're not bad looking cartridges actually. Your idea of using shortened dies makes a lot of sense. I might see if I can find a 1895 Marlin to rebarrel.

RJW

I was pondering recently the 45-70 run up into a set of .376 Steyr dies. Should be almost exactly the .375 JDJ without expensive dies. A Mike Bellm inspired round for sure .

Biathlonman,
You'd have to shorten the die a bit. 45-70 cases are only 2.1" long. The 45-70 case has quite a bit more capacity than 444Marlin brass.

The only problem I've seen with 45-70 wildcats, is the brass isn't all that strong and only lasts 3 or 4 shots with high pressure. I've been using 376 steyr brass (shortend) in my 416 VVC encore(45-70 necked to 416--I was told the barrel is reamed with a 338 win reamer and neck reamed to 416). The Steyr brass lasts much longer.

You can see a case drawing and read about the 416 Barnes .... 45-70 necked down to .416 at

www.reloadbench.com

the site has info on a lot of wildcats and shows load data for most of them including the 458x2" by Barnes which is the ballistic twin of the 450 Marlin.

Another approach is to neck the 45/70 only slightly to .451 and load 45 LC and 454 Casull bullets. Black powder sabots are available in .451 for 40 and 357 caliber bullets. Mt 454 Casull Puma laver gun launches 180 gr .40s at over 2600 fps and 200 gr .358s at 2500. Accuracy is superb.

Rick Jamison, the gun writer, has had prints of 45-70 wildcats from 22cal on up for at least 5-6yrs.
This is a depth of pockets issue more then anything else. As I recall, his design didn't need neck reaming,etc. Size them and shoot'em.

Biathlonman,

A shortened .376 Steyr on a 45/70 case is very doable.It would have a bit more capacity than the 38/56,but less than the 38/56 IMP.with the 40 degree shoulder.It should be able to chamber and fire the 38/56 round,ok.

I have been looking for a cheap set of .376 Steyr dies,a .375 barrel,and reamer for the past year.

My thoughts was to rebarrel a SMLE action and use it as a cast bullet shooter.

I would probably try it full length on a 45/90 case first{9.55x60R Steyr}.

It should make a good cast bullet woods cartridge for deer or black bear.

I have about a dozen cartridges designed on shortened chambers.Which one I build next will
depend on which parts I can pick up reasonably.

WC