Do you think everything has been done, or are there wildcats out there waiting in the wings?

Bakes

Bakes---

There are lots of wildcats yet to be done, but there haven't been any that offered a *real* improvement over factory offerings since the early fifties, but the PPCs and some of the subcaliber offerings are interesting.

If you want *performance* just go by powder capacity. If you want something that's *named cool* go with a wildcat. It's up to you.

Wildcatting is an ego-driven hobby and keeps some gunsmiths off the streets at night. They don't kill any deader and there's no magic in them.

I have to agree more or less with JBELK..

The only thing to add to his statement would be.

If you look enough, you will find some ware in history your idea. Or at least so close it would not have any more advantage.

There are some Improved chambering that do show an advantage...

257 Roberts, 7x57 Mauser, 6.5x55 etc...

Bakes

Necking up and necking down the 338 Remington Ultra because the case is just a bit shorter than the H&H 2.85"

Mike

I'll go along with all the signifigant wildcats have been done, and the only thing left are minor tweeks.

Really, the factory offerings cover most all the gambits. The only thing glaring is not much in terms of rook rifles, or other low power centerfires using modern brass and bore sizes.

One thing I'd like to try, which isn't a wildcat, just a different application, is a 45 acp with heavier cast bullets ~300 gr in a rifle, to see what level of performance can be achieved with minimal report on a non silenced arm.

The real off the wall stuff is what's left, and even then it's slim pickings, and likely already been tried. Other then that, it's just chasing down the little nats ass changes of slightly shorter cases, shoulder angles, neck lengths, etc.

The 9.3x64 Brenneke and the 8x68S(6.5x68) would be nice cases to wildcat! They are both beltless and fater then the 284Win but not so fat as the 404, WSM or RUM cases.

A 6.5mm on a necked down 9.3x64 would be a nice wildcat if it not already exist. But necessary no.

JamT---

The 9.3x64 was wildcatted by Charlie Newton *before* he developed the 250 Sav. I think we can mark that one off the list as being already done.

The 8x68 is neither fish nor fowl and only confuses cartridge case availability. Unless it suddenly got popular enough to guarantee brass supply for a long time, I'd pass on making a wildcat on it.

Also, Dr Howell made a few 'cats off the 8x68, for the gain aver '06 cases w/o the feeding troubles of the Jeffery.
Good stuff.
One thing, lots of wildcats, though they may have been done before, are fairly lost to the populace, so there's lots of stuff in need of reinventing, IYKWIM.
The 'catting arena is no longer about performance, since any factory holes have been filled by now-popular wildcas. But there's still lots of eccentric semi-purposeful cartridges to keep you occupied. For instance, I'm working on a 2.5" .475 on a Rigby-style case, for use in "minimally modified" 98Mauser actions.
Rebarrel and fix feed rails/ramp, long-eye releif scope and you're done.
It's an elephant scout, you know.
(Tote it up to Gunsight, see if I get beat up.)

Then there's always the projects that arise on their own, such as finding an old obsolete that you want to get up and running again. That sort of thing may never end.
Thank goodness!

Bwana B---

I've heard you talk of a .475/416 Rig short a couple times now.......it wont work. There isn't enough shoulder to headspace on IF the case has enough taper to extract and feed.

My 416 Rigby 2.5 is *about* .560 at the shoulder. I DON'T have a fireformed case or reamer handy. That's from a sized case ready for fireforming.

To make it feed like it should takes a LOT of action work and a special magazine box, much the same as is done for the 500 Jeffery but with a narrower front.

By retaining the original-like body taper of the original Rigby it allows the center of the cartridge to remain pointing fairly close to the center line of the action.......which is where it has to go.

[ 05-16-2003, 04:42: Message edited by: JBelk ]

When the wildcatting section started I said I thought I saw plenty of fun to be had ahead, because not everything had been done at the top, and the fast-twist barrels were opening up opportunities to use heavier bullets and larger case capacities to drive them throughout the range of bores.

Look at Robgunbuilder and his group of .600 Overkill builders working off a new case of their own design. I haven't been following it, but there also seems to be a batch of people building a .550 Ivory Express, the idea being to get the largest bore possible from the .460 Weatherby case?

I prefer my fun a little more practical, so I took the .505 Gibbs case and necked it up to .510 to use economical milsurp pulls and other genuine half-inch bore bullets. Lack of time means that I have only gotten it up to .500 A-Square performance, but I think there might be 150 fps more yet to come with 700 grainers. This was an off-the-shelf reamer from Clymer. That did not diminish my fun at all.

I'm not exactly sure what wildcatting is about, but I know my motivation is to achieve a goal the easy way. I would start with a performance requirement, and I would count myself lucky if it were a factory cartridge.

What's left?

How about an incremental powder/load comparison plot from the 10 caliber Dart (25ACP case) to the 1.008 buffalo thumper. Charting the changes in performance/pressures for each load of each powder in each volume with each weight bullet, with a possible note on the effects of different primers?

That ought to keep everyone busy until it's time to start testing different photon charges.

Bakes--Big cartridges is where the fun is.
We have 3- the 458HE--550HE--700HE. And others will build a 12ga from Hell with 700 case.
We are trying 2 more- a bigger case 700- and one
in between .620 and .680.Bakes- where can I get some empty 55 cal Boyes brass?Does anybody know?
Of course bigger cases take more work and actions
cost more for those based on BMG brass.So it goes slower.Ed.

I appologize---

I was thinking PRACTICALLY.

I don't build rifles to see how hard I can be kicked or how fearsome my shooting buddies think it is or to build something for which there is no targect. I build rifle to actually HIT things with.....as comfortably as possible.

I've never seen a piece of paper that took 8,000 plus foot pounds to punch a hole in.

I DO shoot a one gauge cannon at times and it's a hoot. I guess if somebody wanted to hold it and fire it I'd let 'em do it.....but have a first aid kit handy. (7000 gr ball at 900 fps. 500 grs FFG)

The current big bore craze is beyond my understanding and WAY outside my interest.

I like what Tom Burgess uses for a tag line-- If it don't feed it's junk.

I joined the Army to shoot the big guns, I guess that's now passe'.

Ed
I saw a Boyes at a gun show once, never seen brass for it though.I think the topic of boyes brass has come up before. Try a search in the "big bores" forum.

Pecos45 used to shoot a boyes in his younger days, he may help.

Bakes

One could neck up the .577 T-rex or neck it down to .458,.475 dia.

I'm building a 30/338 Lapua 40deg Imp right now, been done before in many variations but, I've been doing some testing with my fathers 6.5/300wsm and the ballistics are astounding so, I was wondering if anyone had necked down and improved the 338 Lapua to 6.5 yet with about a .450" long neck. I'll probably build one of these this next winter with a 32" bbl for shooting the 140's at 1000 yards. Am I reinventing the wheel here, any reamers already available?

Brent - There is a 6.5mm-.404 Jeffery wildcat which is a little more tame than a 6.5mm-.338 Lapua. You can accomplish the same thing as the 6.5mm-.404J by necking a 7MM Dakota to 6.5. Velocities achieved surpass most bullet design limitations. So all you are really accomplishing is burning an inordinate amount of powder to vaporize bullets and erode barrel throats.

Another popular 6.5 wildcat is the 6.5mm-72mm. This is a .300 H&H case necked to 6.5mm. OAL case length is 2.86" You won�t see any of these in a 600-1000 yard rifle match!

Bakes
There are plenty of wildcats left to do. Some more useful than others. I will be showing my latest wildcat, the 9.3 Sisk, and giving pics and specs in the morning. I will be at www.24hourcampfire.com. Come by if you can.
Charlie

I think they have all been done. What Jbelk said, you can do it for fun, but you probably can;t fill any niche' that isn't already done.
I will soon have a Ruger #1 in .338x74keith. This is a rimmed round, balistically like the .338winmag. No real reason except it looks very cool in a classic looking single shot rifle.

Zero Drift,
Thanks. I think you'd be able to drop the velocity to what you need and operate at lower psi for better brass life, but you have a good point and the 404, or necked down Ultra brass may be all you'd need to do the same thing.

I was looking into shortening the 470 Mbogo case to the 375 action length and necking it down to 35 caliber. It was going to be called the 35APG (African Plains Game) and would be the second rifle for a two gun safari. I think it would compliment the 470 Mbogo rather well. It would also start with the 416 Rigby cylindrical brass.
Take care,
Dave

I think the options are limited only by your imagination and resources. Blame your parents if you are lacking imagination, yourself if light on rescources. Every time A new factory round is introduced an infinite number of opportunities arise...

One could shorten the 14,5 mm Russian, and neck it up to .620,.680 or .700 Caliber, to make it the ultimate stopper !!

You know what hasn't been worked with much are the .17's and .20's based on some of the rimmed pistol cases. Some have been worked up but not all of them. Oh boy, this topic could very well have just cost me some money.

[ 05-18-2003, 22:49: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

There are lots of wildcats yet to be done, I mean we have the new RSAUM, WSM and WSSM cases to neck up and down. If you want a really "efficient" big bore, how about the WSSM case necked up to .416"? Use the heavy VLD bullets for the 416 PGW and have a 416 Whisper.

Nothing is needed to replace current factory offerings until some new type of powder is discovered that lets us get past the 5000 fps barrier, but we can still have fun spending lots of money to say that we designed our very own cartridge.

SSCoyote
In Australia there is a gunshop called Myra in broken Hill NSW. They had barrels that fired a standard .22 and it came out at either .17 or .20. They called them the "extruder" . I think there were some problems with twist rates for the .17 barrels. I don't know if they sorted them out or not.

Bakes

Bakes, these guys must have been using lead bullets correct? I mean i can't imagine anything else accepting that kind of pressure? Therefore, i'm assuming they were using a rimfire???

[ 05-19-2003, 20:03: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

Hey Guys, here my .02 cents worth,
I have 2 new wildcats that I am working on,#1. 224 Hansell,which is a 30/06 case sized down to 308 case spec's, on the end of the long neck there is a second shoulder and neck of the 22-250 case, Case length of 2.420". The case cap of H20 is 60.0 grs to the base of the 22-250 neck (win cases). At this time 75gr Horn Amax leave a 26" SS shilen bbl at an easy 3400+fps (chrono) and est. pressure of 50,000 psi (Quickload).
#2. 224 S Hansell is a 270WSM case that has a double shoulder and neck,case cap of 60.0grs H20 to base of the 22 cal neck, with 35 degree shoulder angles on both necks,case length is 1.800". I will chamber the second 26" SS Shilen bbl to this case design (as soon as I can solve the case forming problems on the WSM case)and then run a test using the same powder (4831 and slower) and bullets (60 to 75grs) in both weapons and take chrono readings, I am greatly interested in the end results,long vs short fat case debate.
I have done a fair amount of research on this double neck/shoulder design cases and have found only ONE positive proof (picture and information from trust worthly source), that being Mr. PO Ackley book. Is there any one that can offer other information on any double shoulder/neck designed cases? I would be greatly interested in hearing any facts, opinions or thoughts about the above or what you think may be the results of the above tests.
Thank you,
Don.
ps, before someone states" why in the Hell would someone do this",Because this is what wildcatting and handloading is all ABOUT,thinking and trying something outside the norm. TRY IT, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT.

SOG, what is a PM?, I can't find it,new to running this (*%&^#%& computer.
Thanks again,
Don.

It gets really easy to judge "everyone elses" new wildcat on its merits of usefulness and performance alone, when in fact its most likely a result of a brainstorm or the desire to just be different. While there is in actuality very few gaps in the ballistic picket fence, there are some little spaces for creativity. That is a good thing. It's what drives our inginuity. I believe it will continue. I have a neighbor gunsmith that thinks he invented the 22-6mm and the 22-06,... about 6 years ago! Do I tell him? No. Is he having fun? Yes! The few wildcats I have do not have a ballistic advantage over anything. But showing them to other people who didn't know there were other calibers than the 30-06 and 270 is priceless.

There is one area that hasn't been addressed that well, and that is rimmed cases for single shots. There are all sorts of wizz bang rimless and belted rounds, but not many super flat shooting rounds using rimmed cases. I think something along the lines of the 500 NE 3" necked down in various calibers as a good starting point, other then the spendy brass.

One case that begs to be wildcatted is the 50/110 Winchester case. Dave Clay has necked it to .458 caliber and is getting 2400+ fps with a 420 grain bullet out of a 22 inch barrelled 86 winchester.

Dave is also getting 2200 fps out of the 50/110 with a 525 grain cast bullet out of a 22 inch barrelled 86 Winchester

I think that the 50/110 is just begging to be necked down to .475 which should easily get 2150 with a 500 grain bullet, to .416, .411, or .423 for 2200-2300 fps with a 400 grain bullet and maybe .375 for 2300-2400 fps with a 300 grain bullet.

This case will work great in an 86 Winchester lever gun or maybe a Ruger No.1.

Jeff Collins

Jbelk,
"I DO shoot a one gauge cannon at times and it's a hoot. I guess if somebody wanted to hold it and fire it I'd let 'em do it....."

Sounds like fun to me.

Why do we shoot Elephant guns at targets....BECAUSE WE CAN!

Some of us dont' hunt much.
But still enjoy shooting a big gun!!!

[ 05-23-2003, 16:56: Message edited by: The Specialist ]

JBelk

I think there are at least a couple of reasons for big bores being on the move.

Lets say a rifle in 270 or 30/06 is the centre point on the graph. For those of us who want something different as opposed to a calibre that is just a means to an end, you can either go high velocity small bore or big bore.

To me the big bore is a more relaxing thing to own and work with. For example a quick small bore needs accuracy to be at top velocity and with bullets of high ballistic coefficient. On the other hand the big bore does not create such desires. I also think that in general big bores tend to shoot smaller groups in relation to the bullet diamter and the testing for accuracy is not usually as demanding as is the case for the high velocity small bore.

It is interesting how many people load a 416 Rigby to 2400 f/s with a 400 grain bullet and live in a land of happiness. Yet there is no way the same shooters would load a 300 Magnum back to 2800 f/s with 180 grain bullets. Now if we treated the 300 Magnum like the big bore then it would be a more relaxing calibre if we were happy with any velocity from say 2700 and up with 180 grain bullets.

Mike

It may be that the time is ripe for wildcats on the 45/70 case.
I have necked the 45/70 to .30 caliber with a 25 degree shoulder.Case length 2.1".neck length .335",shoulder dia. .486,shoulder length
1.6".The case will hold a couple of grs. more powder than the 30-06 case.Modern brass will certainly hold the pressure to exploit this capacity.
Powder capacity is greater with the 45/70 case than the .444 Marlin.From what I am told 45/70
cases are more readily in some parts of the world than is the .444 Marlin.
The chamber could be reamed with the .30-8MM Rem. Mag.reamer,however the neck would need to be trimmed to .310".My case was formed by using a .300 Win. Mag. die with the base ground off.If a rim recess is needed,it would need to be cut with a lathe tool or counterbore.
.308 Win.takeoff barells could be rechambered for this round..308 Encore barrels could also be rechambered.
I do not believe this cartridge would be suitable for a Contender.
It would be suitable as a switch barrel caliber for the Model 1895 Marlin,Highwalls,large
Martinis or the Encore.
WC

I think just about everything that's been done is ripe for necking to 9 and 9.3mm.
As to why the big-bore craze, well, why not just get your '06 and 375 and be done with it?
Why do people roller-blade?

My cousin ran the Quad-50MG while touring 'Nam.
Though I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to knock down an abandoned house with one, I think I'll take my big bores on my own terms.