try 59.0 grains of h335 in the cartridge I have described out of a 24 inch barrel and you may see that 2200 fps is not that hard to get , I saw this setup way before they made a 450 marlin but you are right the marlin case would be easier , this should fit in a yugo mauser nice and cheap .

Ok, so I've been thinking more about the various options one has with fitting a viable 416 cartridge into a standard length action. The 416 Taylor seems to be pushing the edge right to the pressure limit to try and reach 2400 fps with a 400 gr bullet (if it can at all). I'd like to avoid that sort of situation. I used these criteria:
- no belt if it can be avoided
- uses a 2.5" case for a standard action
- reaches 2400 fps/400 gr without pressure problems (hopefully)
- no exotic brass

It really boils down to a small number of choices, and this is what I came up with, using RUM brass as the parent:


I investigated with several sources, and can't come up with any existing dies or reamers for this one. I know it's very similar to the 416 Howell, but I like the case geometry of this one better. I also like the idea of leaving more material on the bolt face, as the 404 Jeff case has a larger rim diameter. It's a pretty small difference - but that's just me. It's designed to fit the 98 Mauser action with minimal modifications, so one can have a CRF rifle in a full powered 416 cartridge pretty simply. Magazine capacity is another issue completely, and one that should be addressed no matter what larger size cartridge you put into it. It keeps the same body taper and shoulder angle as the parent case, it's just shorter.

Anyone have comments/suggestions? Maybe I'm all wet, but I think this isn't a bad plan. I might just do it. maxman

jeffeosso,

Actually it isn't too close to the 416 Dakota, which is 2.85" long. It is really a 404 Dakota necked down to 0.416 from0.423. It is so damned close to the 416 Howell it isn't worth discerning between the two, and begs the question WHY? I can guarantee you would never realize any ballistics advantage, feeding advantage, etc. Howewver, you will surely get to spend more money on your chamber reamer since it will be a on of custom.

I would use the RUM brass simply because it is beau coupe more cost effective than 404 Jeffery brass. The precieved advantage of the 0.006" of extra material left on the bolt rim is exactly that preceived!

ASS_CLOWN

Looks fine. Very similar to Howell, as you said.
No reason it won't work. It won't cost much more than a howell anyway, since dies and reamer are almost custom prospects anyway.
Go for it.

yeah.. hmm, ahh...

great idea.. and very close to the 416 dakota..

i believe

jeffe

Ass Clown,

One of the greatest satisfactions of wildcatting is going through the process of dreaming, thinking, investigating, researching, drawing, drafting and building something different just for yourself.

it matters very little if it is similiar to something elso out there, good lord, if that were a guide-line for developing a round look at all the raounds that are basically the same under your opinion:

222RMAG-223 Rem
270 win-280 Rem
7mm Rem Mag-7mm Wby/270 Wby
257 Wby-264 Win Mag

about half the big 308 magnums and alot of the smaller ones to.

Nearly all of the 22 and 6mm wildcats built in the 40's-5-'s and 60's.

The idea is to design a quality, useful round from a good design platform to accomplish a goal.

Maxman wants the top level of performance that the 416 Taylor can produce but with less strain on the gun and brass but keeping it in a standard length action with a standard magnum bolt face.

I think this is a well though out design which should work out very well.

Maxman, looks good. I have been converting Ruger M77 MkII rifles to full length actions in my shop with pretty impressive results. In fact the latest one is a 358 STA that I am just finishing up, in fact only have to chamber the barrel and its finished.

Good Luck, keep us up dated!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fiftydriver,

I was merely offering him a reality check. I really don't care if he want to minimally tweak a 416 Howell and spend ~ $180 on a custom chamber reamer. Believe me I can easily appreciate the need to be "different". If this floats his boat, I say Bully for Him and good luck with this project!

ASS_CLOWN

I would just go with 416 Ultra Mag alot less trouble.I thought of your middle ultra mags also.I think the 416 Ultra mag would be a nice round that feeds smoothly.It would be between the 416 rem mag and the 416 Weatherby .

Personal squabbles aside, jeffeosso, you can't be saying the Winchester and Watts aren't different enough to want one over the other. The Dakota is a magnum length, and the Howell/maxman's round are standard. But whatever.
Maxman, I agree you won't see any performance difference in the two rounds, since they'll both get your 2400 fps, and the theoretical difference in pressure will be imperceptable, as both act well within their safety margin.
That said, if you have John Ricks do it, he has in the past offered to split the cost of the reamer, for his keeping, which would add ~$80 to your conversion cost. The dies for either will be the same. And the RUM brass is tons cheaper than Jeffery. Yes, you could fire RUM brass in a Jeffery-dimensioned chamber with varying results, depending on how the reamer was cut, how much tolerance was in the particular reamer in hand (and how used it has been after being cut) and how much slop you care to have in your chamber. If it's a tight Jeffery, and you shoot a hot RUM in it, it might get stuck. Having it cut to the very dimensions of the brass you're going to use (the brass, mind you, not the dimensional specs of the brass on a piece of paper) gives you tight control over your end result. Of course, you need some space, but maybe half SAAMI spec. Much of that is to allow the smallest reamer out there to accept the largest brass out there, not an issue for the single-gun conversion.
Given those thoughts, if a standard-length 416 was what you were after, and didn't care for the Taylor (which is waaaay cheaper, and maybe 100fps slower) then I can't imagine a good reason to not make your own.
You may find a certain disgruntledness (or some similar sentiment, haven't quite put my finger on it) among the wildcatting community against anything that isn't perfectly novel and well-justified. Perhaps folks are just upset that all the "good" ideas are taken, leaving only sour grapes.
Hey, I know I wish I'd have thought of the 308-375 H&H Imp, the 416-404 Imp or the 470 Mbogo first, but oh well. I'm not going to knock someone for making a 7mm-358 Norma if that's what they want.

Wildcatting, certainly these days, must be a quite personally satisfying endeavor. No one's going to write an article about you, that's for sure. If that's what you're after, go eat your poop in front of the White House to protest bad American beer. (A noble deed if ever there was.)

You only need 77 grs of water case capacity to safely get 2400 fps from from a 400 gr .416 bullet when you go to the WSM case. Just don't seat below the shoulder and let the COL grow a bit past 2.80 inches. The magazine in any Savage rifle in a WSM cartridge will take up to 3.0 inches. They are a snap to rebarrel, and if you index it you will have a switch barrel rifle. Opyimum bbl length is about 21 inches.

Cases are easily made by passing 300 WSM brass over .338 and .375 expander balls before resizing with a 416 WSM die.

BB,
i didn't say they are the same, i said they are close... yes, the 458 watts is a MUCH better round than the win.. and, with hornady you get a far closer together round... 2100 to 2300 fps, same bullet.. hornady claims WAY
too much from a win.

what i meant is that this round is pretty close in design with the 416 dakota... which is a great idea, both of them

jeffe

jeffeosso,
Of course you did not! By the way, grow-up and quit being such a cry baby.

ASS_CLOWN

I simply switched to 370gr North Forks, reached the magic '2400fps' and never looked back.

That's with my 416 Taylor...

I do have to wonder if the ass master has really looked into this sort of thing, or he just types out of his ass...

There was never any intention of bettering the 416 Howell ballistics. The intent was to use cheaper, more readily available brass and fit it into a standard length CRF action. I want to get 2400 fps without pushing the pressure limits of the Taylor. That simple. Have you priced dies and reamers lately? The dies for the Howell are the exact same price as custom dies - because that's what they are. Ever seen those as a standard item? Call up RCBS, that's what I did Friday. A custom reamer isn't much more expensive than an oddball wildcat either - even if that wildcat has been done before.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that if ultramag brass had been around when Dr Howell was making up this series of cartridges, he would have chosen RUM as the parent instead of the Jeff - if only for the price difference of the cases. He made an excellent choice at the time - but it was really the only logical choice for large capacity, unbelted brass then. Of course this is all my own speculation, but it seems reasonable from a practical viewpoint. I guess I should have asked for _constructive_ comments.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions. I can certainly accept that I might have an dumb idea once in a while, but I do think this will be a worthwhile project. Especially when one considers that I do have a 375 RUM project in the works as well. This way, I can use the same new brass as the starting point for two rifles in different chamberings. Anyway, I'll have to do some further planning and financial allotment for this deal, so there won't be any great news in the near future. It is a go for me, and I'll keep the world informed as things progress. maxman

If you want an easier path, go to Z-Hat and check into the 416 Aagard. It's the 376 Steyr necked to 416 and improved. They will chamber your gun and sell dies too. It will fit easily in any intermediate action up to full size 30-06.

how about a 458x2 american necked down to 416 similar to the 416 barnes oal is 2.950 , and cut the belt off so it head spaces on the shoulder , this cartridge was loaded to 2200 fps with 400 grain bullets in lever action guns so it should do more in a bolt action . should fit right in a mauser action with room to spare or maybe even a model 7 .

Well excuse me!
Knock yourself out. By the way, it will always be slower than a Rigby.

ASS_CLOWN

747....I think what you're describing might better be handled by the 450 Marlin amd I think if someone is claiming 2200fps with 400gr bullet in a 458x2 necked down to .416-cal they were "estimating" velocity rather than running it thru a chronograph. I have a 450 custom bolt-action and 2200 fps with a 400gr bullet (4300ftlbs of ME) just isn't do-able in a short bolt-action....and...if you want to use a long-action and seat the bullet out you will trun into the problem of not enough bullet inside the neck and this means you will be shooting a single-shot or wind up dumping powder out of your magazine box from bullets pulling out of the case.

Bill,
You are mostly right on this. Couple things.. the 450 marlin is a 45000psi round, and teh 458x2 is a 59000psi. the 450 gets a COUPLE FPS faster, in the same bullet/barrel length, and both TOP out just under 2200.

HOWEVER,
one can get get 5000+ ft/lbs from a short action... just depends on one's definition of a short action. The 1936 mexican mauser is THE definition of a short action mauser. Let's be totally realistic, there was no such thing as a SHORT action, other than kurtz mauser, until after the 64 winchesters. In fact, all the pre-64 winnies where the same action, from 22h to 300hh.

The mexican mauser ,,1910 and 1936, was THE definition of short action, with all the desirable short action features... lighters (yes, a VERY few oz) shorter, by like 1/2 an inch, and narrower...

and i build one for my son is 458 winmag, with a 3.15" MAX oal. Now, one might try to tell me "2.8" is the max for a short action.. and that would be true for commerical modern actions (new new stuff) but what WAS the short action, until the 60's, currently holds an EASY 5000 ftlbs (rem 405 at just at 2400) from the cz 458 takeoff barrel...

did'nt sundra do a 450x410 in a guide gun?

jeffe

jeffeosso.....think you are mixing things up a bit here.

(1) The 450 Marlin cartridge, in a bolt-action like I described, is certainly capable of operating in the same pressure area as the 458x2" and as they are basically the same....except for the width of the belt.....they should be identical ballistically given same barrel length etc.

(2) The thread is about "short" cases...in this instance 2" cases and my point was that if a 400gr 45-cal bullet can't reach 2400fps in a certain case if you necked it down to 416-cal it still wouldn't as when you neck a case down a bullet of the same weight can't be driven as fast as it could before it was necked down.

(3) The fact that you can fit a 458 WinMag in a Mexican Mauser action and get 5000 ftlbs of ME is interesting but beside the point of the thread.

John Ricks of Shooting Star Rifles has Ken Howell's original 416 reamer, so if you want to go with a Howell, you don't have to have a reamer ground. I purchased the reamer from Ken with the thought of using ultra-mag brass to form cases, which should work. I ended up trading the reamer to John, and haven't persued a 416. I believe John has chambered a few rifles for the round, and will be able to tell you if the ultra-mag brass will work.

Unfortunately, RCBS wants to rape you for dies, Ken gave them a reamer to cut dies with, so they shouldn't charge what they are charging. When I was still considering the project, CH4D quoted I believe $140 for the dies, which isn't too bad.

If you go with different case dimensions, you'll still have the cost of the dies, plus ~$150 for the reamer. The Howell is also a published cat so might have a bit better re-sale. There were two articles on the round in Handloader, one titled the 416 Howell, the other 3 more for Africa (the 375, 416 and 458 Howells).

Bill..

we are cool...

on 1: the 375 winchester and the 38-55 ARE the same case, other than name... and pressure... In a bolt gun, we totally agree, they (450 and 458x2) can be load to the same pressure.. and neither make it to 2200

2: yes, on all three points, 2" case, in 458, cant make a 405 to 2200, then there's no way the same case necked down can take the same bullet weight and go faster.. the OTHER way it might... 308 and 358 for example, but NOT faster and smaller..

3: the statement I was answering was that "there is not way you can get 4300 ft/lbs" or words to that effect, from a short action. Sure ya can.. just not in the rounds chosen for discusion.

jeffe

Why not just build a wildcat on the existing 9.3X64 Brenneke case, using your .416 bullets?

The case is the length you specified, and the capacity of the 9.3 Brenneke is just a hair under the 338 Win Mag.

Why bother with the 376 Steyr based wildcats as the Brenneke case is full size.

I made a 375 wildcat on the case that duplicates factory 375 H&H ballistics.

You can used reloading data for the 416 Taylor.

The Old Western Scrounger sells cases.
(I purchased 100 cases for my 375, which is more than enough for this lifetime).

Garrett

I shot the Taylor prior to the 416 Rem., thats the best of the 416s for the standard action..Mine are all Mauser 98 opened in back with Blackburn boxes...why a wildcat, when you don't need one....and you can take the 416 Rem anywhere without getting hassled or not being able to find ammo...unless your just a shooter and not going to Africa, then I suppose that would not be a consideration....

I find it hard to justify wildcats today, the glory days of discovery are over, and now it boils down to expensive fun and games nothing more...