I'm going to try fire forming a couple of cases for my 20 Tactical in the next few days. I don't have any bullets yet so I'm planning on using a pistol powder and grits. Anyone have an idea as to a starting load? I have H110, Accurate #5 & #7, Bullseye, 296 and I'm sure a couple of others. This is my first wildcat so I am on the steep part of the learning curve right now, any help or additional suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

Mark

I've used a plug of wax and 700X to fireform before. Don't do it inside though.

Lar how much? Half a case full, 1/4 case? 3 grains?

Sorry about the ignorant questions but I've never done this before and would rather be thought a fool than buy a new action <G>.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark....here's the method and it's quite easy. I don't know who actually developed but it is not attributed to Dr Ken Howell. I've used it and it works and it's easy.

Step #1- Prime the case to be formed with a PISTOL PRIMER....do not use a rifle primer! Repeat NOT a rifle primer.

Step #2 - Fill the case all the way to the top with BULLSEYE powder.

Step #3 - Dump the powder onto your scale and weigh it.

Step #4 - The amount of BULLSEYE powder you need will be 10% of the weight determined in #3. Example! Amount of powder needed to fill case is 73 grains then use 7.3 grains of powder (actually start at 8) I say start using the 10% charge weight but you may need to go up a little depending on your brass.

Step #5 - Lightly tamp 1/4 sheet of toilet paper down onto the BULLSEYE powder to keep the powder in place and to separate it from the filler.

Step #6 - Fill the case - to the mouth - with an inert filler such as corn meal, Instant Ralston cereal or Cream of Wheat....do NOT use flour!

Step #7 - Roll and flatten a glob of bullet lubricant. Press the flattened glob onto the case mouth like cutting a cookie. Wipe off the excess lubricant.

Step #8 - Do not try to feed the case from the magazine but rather load it by hand, slipping the rim under the extractor.

Step #9 - Keep the muzzle slightly elevated when firing. There will be some noise (maybe loud) but no danger from the lightweight filler when shot from the barrel.

TIP ---- the 10% figure is a good place to begin but you may need to go higher until you get well formed cases.

2nd TIP --if you are fire-forming used cases I would anneal them first or else you run the risk of splitting a lot of necks.

Bill's method sounds good. For kicks, I thought I'd give you my way. First thing, I do not like forming brass in my good rifle. I make a barrel just for fireforming. It only needs to be a bit longer than the chamber. I have a Mauser 98 welded to a steel carrige. The action points up at a 35 degree angle (or so). I make a barrel for each case I want to form. The bolt face has been made flat to incorporate all case head sizes. You can make extractors for each round. I have been using rifle primers, but maybe I'll try pistol primers out. I use bullseye powder. The 10% way sounds good. I more or less look at the case and figure it out with the WAG Factor (wild ass guess). The 10% is about right. I probably go 15%. Then, I take 10 minute Cream of Wheat, The yellow box, and fill the case to the base of the neck. Others experience was that this was the best. I then place a piece of a cotton ball on top of the filler and push it in a little bit to get all the hairs inside the case. The cream of wheat pushes the brass into the chamber, and wa-la. I learned this from a friend who used to sell wildcat brass. When forming sharp (ACK) shoulders, this gives a soft shoulder. Plenty enough for headspacing. The case body is in place. I have shot a hole in a ss bowl doing it. Keep the hands clear. The friend who showed me this built a 6mm imp rifle, aA Colt or a Smith, I can't remember, for a customer. After several hundred rounds of firing unimproved factory through it, he had severe headspace problems and case head seperations. I think the good rifle should be spared this. I cannot speak for the forming with fillers in the good rifle. I just thought I would avoid that as well. I have some barrel stubs that have seen well over 500 rds. I'll borescope one and put up another post.

[ 09-18-2003, 07:44: Message edited by: jnrifleworks ]

I thought of this when reading Doc Howell's similar method of using stubs to fireform with a donor action...Isn't that technically a short barreled rifle and if some butthead ATF agent wanted too couldn't you get in trouble for having it?

Unfortunately these concerns are real these days..

Mike

It isn't a short barreled rifle since you weld a bloop tube to the end of the stub for an over all barrel length of 16"+. The short stubs are used only since they are easily aquired as cutt-offs. You can also just keep the barrels unscrewed. It is silly. I was thinking of a way to avoid this. If I weld a wedge in front of the stub's muzzle, then it is obviously not be designed to fire projectiles. Would this cause the device to no longer be considered a firearm?

John....the process you describe is, of course, the ideal way to do it but consider most of us don't have the equipment or skill to chamber a stub barrel.

With respect to the Ackley-chamberings I've had good luck with several rifles by having the chamber cut so that factory ammo had a definite "feel" when chambered...the result is a perfectly formed case. If I were going to do it for a high-volume PD rifle I would certainly have a spare barrel chambered with the same reamer for all fire-forming...a good excuse for a switch-barrel rifle.

I use about the same proceedure, but I lightly lube the cases with Imperial die wax, use some old CCI 250's, and top the 10 minute Cream of Wheat off with 1/4 square of tissue paper to seal it off. I also pack the COW in there tight with a drill bit turned upside down and stuck in another empty case as a holder.

I been forming cases in this 30/338 Lapua Imp with 30gr 800-X but started at 16 and worked up until it formed the shoulder nice and sharp and shoulder length stopped growing.

I've heard that with 700-X, 25% of the case volume is the recommended load to start with, somewhere around 15-20% would be my guess tho. 30gr in this cartridge is probably up to 5gr more than I need really. They sure look beautifull when they're done though.

I think a bullet causes a hell of alot more wear on the barrel per shot than COW does, but I could be wrong. 100 rounds of brass should last me a while, so it really isn't a biggie but, a forming barrel would be nice tho.

It will be interesting to see what John finds with the bore scope.

Ahh..That's an easy fix to what shouldn't be a problem anyway!

thanks John.

Mike

Brent.....I also tried tissue paper as a sealer instead of a glob of bullet lubricant but I found I got better results. with less powder, using the glob.

I borescoped a 375 H&H Barrel stub that has seen about 600 rds. All the rounds fired through it were 13 to 15 grs bullseye, and the same as before. The throat was not eroded, but the bore and groove were covered in a matte/etched/pinged looking finish. It is hard to describe. There were some linear scars/streaks that were parallel to the bore, not twisting with the twist rate. From what I can tell, this finish would attract copper fouling. Can't be sure since it is a new discovery for me. I know I wouldn't want it in my custom barreled rifle. I am tring to think of a way for people to form their brass who don't have the means to own their own action and barrels. You can't really rent the thing out since it is a receiver still. Any ideas on how to make the receiver work, but not be considered an firearm any more? Might be impossible. A mauser receiver can be had for about $80, and when your gunsmith chambers your barrel, have him make a stub for the mauser. It's easy. He'll need to headspace it still, so it might cost $50 to $100 depending on who is the gunsmith. I can make stubs to order with a set headspace setting. I wonder if there are any other ways of getting the primer off while containing the pressure. I have heard of forming cases on a loading press with water. How about a loading press fireforming rig? Don't just go out and do it, I'm just tossing that out for thought. It might be dangerous. Seems that the last bit of camming power on a press might be enough to hold the pressure in the case. You'd want to thread the other end of the stub for a pipe so that you could pipe the exaust outside. Also, the shell holder would need to be solid to hold the primer in. Maybe you could make some kind of firing pin that goes inside the ram and has a saftey that only lets it fire when it is in the closed position. Maybe I'm having another brain fart. Anybody have any ideas here. The nice thing would be that the headspace would be set to the shellholder. The shell holders could be made custom by a number of places. In this case, if all the shell holders are the same depth, People could share them or rent them out. You only need such a barrel for a short while so you really don't need to own it. I suppose the entire press kit could be rented since it isn't a firearm. Would this be legal, or is that mfg of a firearm. Well, theres some ideas.

I just phoned the man I've learned this from. He said he once did the press method, and it worked. It was, however, hard on the press. The dies had to be hardened, and they still got battered. Well, it looks like the mauser way is the way. I'll be posting on the gunsmithing thread regarding the headspace problem when using factory rounds in an IMP chamber.

I use chamber adapters in a 12 ga.shotgun to fireform brass.The many rounds fired with cornmeal have abraded the the bore on the muzzle end.

I machine the adapters from 4140 hardened to
28-30 Rockwell-C.

For rimless cases,I use the shellholder ground off even with the base of the case.The adapter is counterbored to accept the modified shellholder.
The modified shellholder is slipped onto the case,it is then inserted into the adapter and fired in the shotgun.

I have killed Wasps as far away as 12 ft.with cornmeal.

WC

Thats a good idea. That would be universal fit and could be shared between shooters. Thanks,

Thanks guys!

Just so you know, I was able to fit 19.2 grains of Bullseye into the case, so I used 2 grains for starters. I followed with 1/2 sheet of 1 ply of a 2 ply sheet of toilet paper, then topped off with corn meal and sealed it with a blob of candle wax.

Noise was a little less than a 22 lr, and the case filled out but leaves a little to be desired still so I'm going to go up 1/2 grain and try it again.

It is kind of a pain because I don't have dies so I have to swage the necks down the tedious way, but I would like a formed case or two.

Rocky Gibbs used a hydraulic case forming contraption. I've used it myself with break fluid as the media. It works OK, but is a little on the messy side. This led to thoughts of a "cleaner" method. I've started making a "receiver" made of a 7/8 x 14 tpi threaded rod, coupler and sizing die. The threaded rod has been drilled for the firing pin hole and countersunk for the firing pin and spring. A smaller threaded rod is screwed into the back of it with the firing pin protruding about 1/8".
At this point, I load up the case using Ken Howell's method, but I use grits instead of Cream of Wheat. It's a felony to even own Cream of Wheat in South Carolina! Lube the case with Imperial Sizing wax, slide case into shell holder, remove innards from sizing die and drive dowon over the lubed case until its flush against the shell holder. Remove shell holder and thread on the 7/8 x 14 tpi coupler nut. Screw in the threaded rod containing the firing pinuntil it touches the case. At this point, youve got a chamber made from the sizing die. You can adjust the firing pin holder in or out to account for head spacing.

Are you guys making this too hard?

I don't have much exp with AI cartridges, but recently had my .243 punched to .243 AI. My smith recommended that I just use new brass and a max dose (for .243) of medium burning powder, and any bullet. He said I would "feel" the round being chambered. Well the first ones I did came out perfect. For grins I tried a Fed prem factory load and it came out nice also. Hmmmm I like simple...

HockeyPuck,

I went down that road before,never was satisfied with it though.

I found using a shim washer between the shellholder and die to be the best way to control headspace.

Bushing the shellholder and allowing the firing pin to pass through it prevented the primer backing out.

Be sure to trim the case to length before firing
in a sizing die.A case that protrudes past the neck sizing portion of the die into the threaded part may expand,makeing it difficult to remove the case.

This method works OK for prototypeing,but is
time consuming.

You would in fact be manufacturing a short barreled firearm.IMO

WC

Wildcatcrazy,
I'm not so sure about the Huckypuck method being a sbr. My reason is that the AR-15 upper assembly is not considered a firearm. It is not capabile of firing the cartridge by itself. The lower receiver has the hammer in it. As long as the hammer is seperate from the threaded piece with the firing pin, you could use the AR-15 as the example. I guess at that point the nail hammer becomes the firearm, and that could be the mfg of a sbr. Maybe you should hit the firing pin with the butt of an old revolver. Then its a pistol as the firearm, and the short barrel issue goes away.

I'm with StikR,
Why go through all the pain? As was said, load a max load for the parent case and go hunting or shooting. It Works! As far as cream of wheat, corn meal,etc. keep that in the kitchen.
Stepchild
PS I have killed lots of game while fireforming cases.

I've never thought of my ball peen as a firearm, but the definition fits, I guess.
Just firing the parent case while hunting, or any other activity, in a wildcatted firearm works great... if the cartridge is an Ackley Improved or a Kilbourne. Other than that, you may experience some ugly happenings.

All this discussion has made a good deal of sense to me and got me thinking. Does anyone know of a hazard associated with fireforming in a sizing die? I don't know if the shock could cause the die to crack or something.

A simple base with a spring and firing pin could be machined that the die just screws on to. Heck, it wouldn't have to be machined even just use a 7/8" nut and bolt, drill a hole in the bolt for the pin and screw it to the die. Index marking the 2 could set the headspace for repeatability. Simple, no wear on your barrel, and faster to do.

I just don't know if it would be hard on the dies or not.

You know, there was an article in VHA about a guy that had developed a system for that. I bet if you called the folks at VHA they'd steer you to it.

SScoyote,

Sorry, but what is VHA? Varmint Hunters of America? Just a WAG there.

VHA-- varmint hunters association (actually the mag.) Sorry 'bout that.

[ "Other than that, you may experience some ugly happenings."[/QB][/QUOTE]
I have been using near max loads and factory loads to fire form for a looong time and as yet have not had any ugly experiences. Not that I don't believe it can't happen. What I'd like to hear is who has and what were they. There is no intent to contradict or argue here. I would just like to be objectively informed.

or, just have the smith install the stub barrel on your action after your "good" barrel has been setup. fireform a few hundred cases and have him install your barrel. only a few minutes work and you should have brass out the wazoooo.......
woofer

I have done allot of experimenting with fire forming my 257 Roberts Ackley Improved cases.

I finally gave up trying to get them perfect in one step.
If I accept a 90% formed shoulder from 8~15 gr Unique and Cream of Wheat, then I will get a 100% shoulder and a great group when I shoot a real load.

Gents,

Now that there is as many knowledgeable folks here concerning fireforming, can a 375HH factory load be fired in a 400HH chambering to make 400HH cases? Sounds dumb to me, but maybe you fellows will enlighten me.

Roger QSL