I will be building a new rifle soon and I was going to do a 250 Savage with a 1 in 10 twist. I'm now thinking of going with the AI version. Is there enough gain to make it worth the effort?

Being a avid 250-3000 user and fan, Ive had more than a few of both over the years, and you can pick up as much as 300 FPS with little effort with the AI version. ...but after trying them my take is your better off with a 257 Robts. or better yet a 25-06 if your looking for velocity..

My reasoning being, the real beauty of a 250-3000 is its lack of recoil and mild voice, its such a pleasure to shoot, its incredibly accurate in that Ive never seen or heard of a 250 that didn't shoot, and its more than suitable for Whitetail, Mule Deer, and black bear, not to mention most of Africas plainsgame, just a real nice little rifle caliber that I've killed many deer and a half dozen or more elk with it simply by using a little care on elk, keeping the distance inside around 250 yards max...Just my take gleaned form years of shooting both the std. and the AI., but something like this has to be a personal choice based on its use more than anything else..

BTW its not only my go to deer rifle but also my go to varmint gun along with my 222. I have two 99 Savages and one of the older Ruger 77 Ultralight models in 250 Savage. I have not used the caliber for elk in a number of years, but never felt undergunned in my misspent cowboy youth with it. I went to 270 and 06 in later years then settled on the .338 Win. for elk some years past and never looked back, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the 250 on elk, especially with todays good bullets, should the need or desire show up. Its usually my go to deer rifle with 110 gr. Accubonds at 2900 FPS.

The reason I was thinking AI is that I will be using a Winchester short action. I too have had several 99's in .250-3000 and a .257 Bob in a model 77

I built myself 2 250-3000AI rifles. According to P.O. Ackley it was the most efficient improvement of all the cartridges he worked with.
I have built a couple of 257 AI rifles for customers. It is no slouch either. One customer has killed several whitetail deer while fire forming his cases.

on the short action the 250 Ackley makes perfect sense.
I have a Ruger tang safety in 250AI
and it doesn't need to be pushed all that hard to get the job done.
making 3-K with 86grainers is super easy.
and getting to the [non+p]257's speed with 100gr bullets is doable.

I have a couple of 257's and a few of the 0-6 case version 25's but the little 250 Ackley see's enough field time to make the case worth while.
the oldest daughter generally makes off with the rifle for the deer hunt so I generally use it for shooting rock chucks in the spring.

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you can pick up as much as 300 FPS with little effort

Compared to what???? Not from a 8% capacity gain loaded to the same pressure. 8% capacity will give you around 2% so assume 3000fps your gain 60-100fps.

Now compare it to factory loaded to 52,000 or below then load to 60,000 and yes you can get close to 300fps.

Load a normal 250 Savage to 60,000 you will be within 60fps or so from the AI.

I spent years playing with the AI and Gibbs style. Loaded to equal pressure capacity will only get you around 1 for 4 velocity for capacity increase. Difference between wildcat pressure and factory is the real gain.

The real answer is load what you feel you will be happy with.

I've heard and read all of the formulas and different opinions on the 250AI. I get 3200fps w/the old 90gr X bullet and 43.0 gr of RL19. I've never experienced any pressure and it kills whitetails like they've been hit by lightning. I think the best all round load for the little round would be the 110gr Accubond at about 3000fps. powdr

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I get 3200fps w/the old 90gr X bullet and 43.0 gr of RL19

I don't doubt that. QL simply calls that a 59000psi load. Just not the factory 53000.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

you can pick up as much as 300 FPS with little effort

I spent years playing with the AI and Gibbs style. Loaded to equal pressure capacity will only get you around 1 for 4 velocity for capacity increase. Difference between wildcat pressure and factory is the real gain.

roger

The only criticism that I have heard about the 250 AI is that the brass case has already started to taper at the web so having the sides straightened out causes a bulge in the case just ahead of the web, leaving a small section unsupported by the chamber. The barrelmaker that told me that said brass formed of other cases with a .473" head (300, 306, 7mm, whatever, take your pick) would avoid the problem as it was only the sharp taper that caused the problem.

What about 6.5 Creedmore necked down with the AI dies?

I have owned Ackley's two volume set twice. Each time, I read them to death and then traded them off a few years later. They were filled with some very interesting tests, data, and loads, and loads, and loads of loads for hundreds of wildcats.

I remember Ackley writing that the .250-3000 was one of a few cartridges that benefited the most by "improving". You can still shoot .250 Savage cartridges in the .250AI chamber. In a .308 length action you have ample room to seat very long, heavy bullets with excellent BCs.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is based on the same case so it would be sort of like a .25 Creedmoor. Or maybe the 6.5 Creedmoor is sort of like a 6.5/.250 AI.

I built a 250 AI some 40 years ago and have been shooting it ever since....mostly 75-85 gr wt bullets now...

24" Shilen barrel, Rem 788 action, Bishop stock.

Oehler 33 Chrono'ed loads (many times since inception) 75 gr 3550 fs +/- 25 fs, 85 gr 3325 +/- 25 fs, 100 gr 3150 +/- 25 fs...FROM MY RIFLE...cases reloaded at least 10 times each.

WW 250 AI case volume ~52 CC
WW 250 standard case volume ~45 CC...~14% difference.

257 Roberts ~56 CC
257 Roberts AI ~63 CC...~11% difference

250 AI vs 257 Roberts 52\56...~7% difference

QL can suck...depending on lots of factors and ISN'T the last work in ballistics programs as is most of the exterior ballistics programs...I've used both LD and QL(and Powley calculators) many years and found MANY DESCREPANCIES...they are what they are...MATHAMATICAL CALCULATING PROGRAMS DRIVEN BY MATHAMATICL ALGORITHEMS...very useful for doing what they are designed for...giving ESTIMATES

Too often people compare cantaloupe with horse apples for arguments sake or they just don't know squat...especially with modified Ackley cases or Ackley's tomes.

I agree with some of the posters comments or with portions of them...information on this particular iteration is posted on this forum if you will just do some research.

My advice on Ackley's offerings is take them with a large handful of salt as all/most of the velocity data is guesstimates and/or just calculations and with the advent of the massed produced ballistics chrono's all the smoke and mirrors was revealed.

That being said...I have compared my AI version with several standard versions and the AI velos are out of proportion to what a "calculated" QL or Load from a Disk program calculates...ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL EXCEPT CASE VOLUME...i.e. length, powder, primer, etc.

MY "SAGE" advice???...If you want to muck about with an AI then the 250 AI is the best one to do as it does give you MUCH more in the way of higher velo, it is very easy to work with, and be built on the shortest actions and will take all the N.A. game up to moose is you use the right bullet and stay within the usable killing range of the cartridge/bullet.

I like the quarter bore and have built/bought rifles/pistols from 256 Win to 25 Gibbs...I've also done the same thing with most of the calibers from 22 to 50 cal...

BUT...I would recommend a 25-06 or one of the newer "fat body" cased wildcat/standards as they are much more versatile...you can load them for a wide range of velo's and bullet weights

They're ALL good!!!!

I think the Sav. 99 benefits the most with a blown out shoulder as My bolt gun can do about what a AI can do, but at higher pressure, but everything has held together for the last 60 or 70 years, so it must be good to go.

But I still say the beauty of the 250 is it simply doesn't need more velocity or bullet weight to do its job and its light and handy and no recoil , the kids and wife can shoot it, and if I need more juice, I have a gun cabinet full of canidates with more thump...I also have 9 boxes of Rem 100 gr. corelokts, and about the same in 100 gr. WW factory loads,not to mention the factory loaded Rem and WW 87 gr. loads, and probably 1000 or more rounds of handloads. I can't shoot that much ammo up in my lifetime, and as I age and reject recoil I can return to my youth and use it once again on deer and elk. Ya just can't beat that synopsis!

Ramrod,
No argument with your post, I have not compared my Ruger or 99s to factory ammo, although Ihave quit a bit of factory ammo...I just load my Ruger to its max with H414 to pick up the 300 FPS that Ackley claimed and got..compared to the factory 100 gr. stuff I chronographed that got me about 2600 FPS, and the H414 load that got me 3000 FPS plus a little and my go to H414 load is 2900 FPS..I got the 300 FPS any way you cut it. The 99s on the other hand max out at about 100 FPS short of a bolt gun with any load, at least if Im going to shoot them.

It is not really surprising but certainly interesting to see the continued debate regarding the AI cartridges. Comparisons continue to be made between factory loadings and high-pressure handloads. Capacity comparison are often made between unfired factory brass vs fire-formed, unsized, AI brass. In other words, there are always variables introduced which render the comparisons invalid.
The standard 250-3000 can easily achieve 3000+ fps with 100 grain bullets. The AI version will add about 100 fps to this at similar pressures. This is in a bolt action rifle. Load to these levels in a 99 Savage and case life is likely to be short.
I have seen samples of 250-3000 brass (W-W) which were seriously under sized at .459" at the base. This reduced diameter continues all the way up and case capacity is, obviously, reduced. Interestingly enough, 22-250 brass, from the same manufacturer, does not exhibit this problem and is more likely to measure around .467".
Having said all this, if I was going to mess around with a rimless AI cartridge, I think the 250 is one I would want to use. Regards, Bill

Well I have ordered a .25 cal barrel from KS arms in Edmonton and Karl has a 250 AI reamer and Gages that I can borrow, so that sort seals that deal. Thanks for all the input gents

Plenty of gain, it's a 257 Roberts that fits a short action nicely.

I shoot 85gr X bullets at 3350 and 110gr Accubonds and 2935.

The big plus of the 250 Ackely IMP is in a 99 Savage in that the straight wall case has less back thrust and you can gain a lot of velocity and cases last longer by a good deal plus you can load the 99 to bolt action "book max" loads, and like Ackley claimed get up to 300 FPS..With the standard factory 250 you need to cut back two full grains, sometimes 3 or you will be feeling lever drop, not good!!

All that said, I don't need an extra 300 FPS but the added brass life is a big deal these days..

As for killing power, Ive shot enough deer and elk with the 250 to feel confident its fine up to 200 yards or so as is right out of the factory ammo box. The real beauty is lack of noise and recoil makes it a dream to shoot. I only use the 250 on deer these days or maybe to shoot a cow in the alfalfa patch for meat. I really like the 85 gr. GS customs bullets for Mule Deer and Whitetail, it numbs em..

Well I finally got going on this project. Yesterday I threaded and chambered the barrel. The new model 70's are a bit trickier to work with. The shank is 1 1/16" and 28 tpi and there is a 49 degree cone that needs to be fitted to the bolt.
Today I will mill the extractor slot and maybe start profiling the barrel contour.

Do the new M70's still have the extra long magazine? If i remember right, the Win 70 "short " action was closer to 3-3.1" which would fit a 257 Roberts, even above SAAMI OAL.

All mod. 70 in the past needed 30-06 bottom metal or inserts so that you can seat bullets out..Same for the Remington 722, use 721 magazine..I suspect that is still the case, seat bullet .257 deep in the case and try it foe fit.

There is a spacer in the mag box that's spot welded in. It's easily removed and then the box will accommodate 3" OAL. I also have to modify the bolt stop. Since my donor action was a 22-250 I will also need a .308 length follower.

What has not come to light with all the negative advise on the Ackley Improved is that by blowing out the case straight, you remove the taper of the original case, and that all but illiminates back thrust, and that has an effect on the PSI that's claimed on some posts here, therefore its claimed that the 250, 257 and 7x57 do get the extra 300 FPS but at the same pressure level or close..NOne of us has the equipment to determine the claimed pressure levels, but using the seat of our pants in reloading, the AI calibers mention cases when fired do not indicate the large pressure increase as claimed here, they do indicate about the same pressure as the original cases I fired in my rifles before I improved them..Just my 2 bits and Ive never had a problem of any kind with a Ackley in the above 3 calibers. I also determined that if I need more poop from any one of these rounds I can get it with a 25-06, 7 mag, and that the beauty of the 250, 257, and 7x57 is plenty of punch with less blast and less recoil..Works for me.

Another item that really hasn't been mentioned very much is case life.

IF you adjust your sizing die correctly there is very little case smashing...my 250 AI is reduced in diameter less than 0.001" and the shoulder set back slightly less.

I don't have to trim but about every 3-5 firings and then basically just to square the case mouth and usually only partially, maybe 1/2 diameter is shinny and the other half still black from powder burn.

I mark the case base with every firing and most of the cases have been fired so many times there isn't any room left for another mark....at least 20 times each and still going.

We all know about the "formula" to calculate the various parameters and it does work well, but what is wrong with loading over SAMMI specs as long as those increases don't exceed SAMMI specs for the brass or the receiver...the 250 was developed over 100 years ago for actions and powders available at that time...using modern receivers and powders and loading to modern SAMMI specs for those parameters gives the 250 AND the AI version new life...not to mention velo the variations that are added by using a longer barrel or the parameters that each barrel have can add or subtract from the velo...or the "before/after" velos from using the SAME barrel after re-chambering.

My AI gets very close to manual 25-06 velos using the lighter 75 gr VMAX and MUCH less of a faster burning powder in it's 24" bbl but doesn't come anywhere near when using 100-120 gr bullets...but the actual velos are still way over QL's calculations or manual listed velos because the pressures are near 60KPSI range.

Luck

Well I finished the rifle and have been to the range a few times. The load that settled on is 37 grains of H4895 and a 100 grain Sierra boatail using 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Groups are averaging .7" at 100 meters doing 3080 fps

As Doc Ed commented the 250AI and 30-30 AI were the biggest gainers as per P.O.
I have had one for 15 + years and I no longer use my 270 -NO it does not replace a 270 BUT it is Lighter More Accurate and can be built on a short action.
Sierra Uses the 250 AI for accuracy testing their 25 cal bullets

Jim

Ackley states the 250, 257, and 7x57 were his best successes..Notice they are all on the 30-06 case basically, and the shortened version seemed to produce the results he wanted..

If it were fair, and its not. I can safely load my long throated 7x57 with H414 powder and a 160 gr. Nosler partition seated .284 deep to slightly beat the 160 gr. 7mm Mag factory rounds I tested...But of course a handloaded 7 mag. would leave my load behind in the dust..But a good example why not to put much faith in quotated claims by wildcatters..Who compare factory stuff to handloads.

My standard 250/3000 will come within 75 to 90 FPS or my Ackley Imp rifles with the 100 gr. partitions or almost the same with 110 gr. Accubonds, plus barrels can also change that picture in either direction..That is my Ruger 77, My 99s won't do that..I load starting loads in my 99s or at least 2 grs below book max..

I have never had that bulge in the base of my Ackley IMP 250-3000, and the IMP will shoot bolt action loads, so it does improve the Savage 99.