So it occurs to me that my .25 caliber project will involve the most demanding case forming steps out there-I'm necking down, AND pushing the shoulder back. 7.5 Swiss brass is not exactly free, so I figure it's time to learn on something that IS free-so I went to the range today and swept up .357 Magnum brass. I now have enough that I can smash a few while learning.

First thing I did, was sort out all the nickel plated, cleaned that in the ultrasonic cleaner and bagged it up to take to the range shop. I've heard nickel plated brass is no good for forming cases. True/Not true?

Next, I sorted by headstamp. While sorting, I chucked any cases that were mashed or mangled, anything that didn't look like a pristine new case was tossed in the "don't need this" bucket.

After that, I decided I could use this .17 caliber barrel I have-it's 17.5" long. That is, assuming I can form cases!

The plan is to run the .357 Magnum brass into a .30 cal, then a .27 cal, then a .25 cal, then a .22 cal, then .17 caliber forming dies. The final form die should be a .17 Remington Fireball die that's been trimmed a little, exactly the same way I plan on trimming the .25-284 dies for my other project.

To make the form dies, I had planned on drilling a hole, then boring that hole to the precise neck OD for each caliber, and then cutting a lead in taper angle that is fairly steep to help guide the brass towards the hole. Once that first forming is done, the next die works the same way.

Will having the side walls of the case unsupported crush the case? Do I need to bore the body of the die the full depth of the case?

I ask, because while drilling and boring the neck and shoulder portion of a die is a cakewalk, drilling and boring the neck and shoulder portion of the die while 1.29" deep into a very small hole requires a much more involved setup. Also if I don't need to support the sidewalls of the case, I could use the same set of form dies for MANY types of cases, to neck down!

Contact Neil Jones and order a set of form dies and bushings.

just for shits and giggles send me your E-Mail address. Might be of some help. roger

You came to the right place for this discussion..

I've necked .357 MAX brass to .30 Cal using my 7.65 x 53 Argy dies and a "riser" that I turned on the lathe.

Beyond that, I've not gone further, but have had some thoughts about a .224 based on the Max.

Like Roger said- PM him. He's done some interesting things...

Doug, would you have a photo of what that riser looked like?

I can imagine it looking like just a post, but then how to remove the case?

Here's a photo of stage 1 case forming!



Yep, that's old R-P nickel plated brass, not what I'll actually use but what I'm using to learn to make form tools!

That is a 30-357Mag case, pretty close-it will *JUST* hold a .308 bullet. Next up is going from .30 to .27, then .27 to .25!

I may not need that many steps, but better to have and not need, right?

Are you having fun ???? roger

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfram Malukker:
Doug, would you have a photo of what that riser looked like?

I can imagine it looking like just a post, but then how to remove the case?

It is just a post, turned down from brass round stock. (actually, a brass 50g weight) Since I didn't have the decapping pin installed, I drove the case back out with a light tap of a 1/4 diameter rod. If I get to it, I'll PM you some pics.


One thing you can count on is the need to anneal the case neck, likely more than once, as it will definitely work harden.

quote:

That is a 30-357Mag case, pretty close-it will *JUST* hold a .308 bullet.

Looking good!

Picture that 3/16" longer, and that's my 30-357 DGW case.


Keep going; you'll get there!

I've been working on other projects, but I did find a flaw in my plan.

The above case has the shoulder pushed back to just longer than the shoulder dimension, but the neck length is almost perfect.

Which means that as I neck down, either the brass would have to grow considerably longer, or the neck will be shorter-or the case capacity will drop some.

Right now, I think I'll get about 20-21gr case capacity-essentially a rimmed .221 Fireball-and so I'm looking into a 1-12 twist barrel for it, as I'd like to be able to shoot 35-50 grain bullets, probably mostly 40 to 50 grain. I have a handful of .22 FMJ-BT's here that weigh 50gr, but are 0.738" long, that's probably a little too long for a 1-14 twist, but it *might* work. I *know* they'll work in a 1-12 twist. What's the downside on the 1-12? Just lighter bullets going to bits before they reach the target?

Worked on this some more today. The R-P nickel plated brass died a crunchy death in the .250 savage seater die, but one of the new Starline cases necked down to .25-ish OK. the neck is a bit short right now but that's OK, as it's the only survivor out of 4.





I did no annealing, and the .250 Savage die hasn't been modified as it's a brand new die set, although I don't have a .250 savage and don't plan on getting one. I got the die set in a trade, but since it's new...I am loathe to cut it up. If I only had one of the two dies or it was missing parts, sure...but a complete die set? Nah, that's too good to ruin.

Instead, I'll cut a reamer and ream a proper form die-actually more than likely a .256 Win Mag die, because why not make it standard? Then if I ever get the urge to play with that one, the .25 cal form die for this will double as a form die for that!

I have a 256 Win Magnum. Using a 30 Mauser or 30 Luger die works perfectly to neck the 357 brass down and set the shoulder in the correct location. I am then able to run it into the 256 Win die.

I also have a 284 GNR, based on the 357 Maximum brass. For this I use the 30 Mauser die to set the shoulder and then neck down to 284.

If you can find any of the Saeco stubby dies they work great for case forming. I form 219 Donaldson Wasp by using a 30 Herret die to set the shoulder location. Then to 270 Caliber with a Saeco die, next to 6mm with another Saeco die

I have found these days on eBay for very reasonable prices if you look for single dies of the caliber you want.

I have found it works best to support the case if you are setting the shoulder back hence the 30 Mauser and 30 Herret dies for this. After that you are just reducing the neck diameter.

Replied on the small cal board to this.

IF you plan on doing much of this type stuff.
Why not get a Lee neck belling die and make up a set of various inserts and spacers for it.
Then you can resize just about anything.

For kicks one night I necked an '06 case down to .22 cal for over 2 inches before I skipped fresh lube and crushed it.
Sure looked like it could have been run on down almost to the head of the case.

I made such a set of inserts years ago. Didn't get around to highly polishing the insides of all of them. Just the 2-4 I was going to use most.

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
IF you plan on doing much of this type stuff.
Why not get a Lee neck belling die and make up a set of various inserts and spacers for it.

+1 You can get a cheap lee collet die, collet crimper, etc. Lee even sells just the die body, which is basically a threaded tube. Then you can easily turn simple cylinder inserts on the lathe to do what you want. You wouldn't need to make a modify a die for each step or experiment. Just find an old bolt or piece of steel, turn it down to what you want and drop it into the lee body.

The crumpled cases are from too much force. You can reduce the sizing force with lube/polishing, annealing, or taking a smaller step. Supporting the case wall with a full die helps, but I've found it easier to just make an intermediate bushing and do the op in two steps. Things usually come out straighter and more uniform this way too.

Good luck with your projects.

Dies shortened tonight, need to do a little fine tuning though.

Necking to .30 caliber, then .25, then .22, the case grows a little longer and the neck is very close to being 0.200" long, which was the target.

But, out of 20 cases, NO ANNEALING, I lost two cases in the 3-step neck down, which is exactly the number of cases I lost by skipping the .25 caliber neck and just going from .30 to .22 caliber.

The big kicker is that by going straight from .30 to .22, the case ends up slightly shorter-the shoulder length is the same, but the neck length is shorter, like the brass just got thicker without getting drawn up longer.

So, using a 3-step forming process, the case comes out almost exactly 1.280" long, base to end of neck. With the 2 die process, the cases are 1.260" long. The .020" of length all comes out of the neck area.

The seater die works great, I need to grind in a little softer radius on the entry into the die, although it never scratched a case. This is as far as I went with the first 40 out of 45 cases.



The sizer die, however, needs some more work. It needs to be *slightly* enlarged on the end, as even with a soft radius it's shaving brass as we get down to the case head area. If I just let it push the brass down, it'll shave it off. If I slowly work the brass down, it pushes a 0.050" tall belt onto the case!

I filed the sharp shaved edge of brass off on this case-but you can see the "belt", if only the focus on my phone camera was better.



I could turn the rims to the belt diameter, cut a slightly deeper extractor groove, and have a "belted magnum"! While nifty looking, and a great idea considering the "magnum" on the case head, it wasn't the goal-so now I gotta rework the die a bit to make it stop that.

So, in order to get the "best" case, I will need to make a .25 cal necking die, grind a bit less taper into the sizing die, and decide if the neck length I am getting is good enough.

The dimensions that the die produces SO FAR, are:



Polishing out the die a bit to get that .376" base dimension correct won't take very long with a 240grit stone, but I'll have to polish the die again after grinding.

Dies are polished-they no longer form belts or scrapes on the cases. I am worried about tiny lines formed into the shoulder/neck area of the case though-they do not show on the inside of the case but there are clear ironed out wrinkles on the outside of the case. I suspect that these should be ironed out during fireforming? Or will they just split the neck and shoulder?

Or is this just one of those things that'll be what it'll be?

They will be gone with the appropriate pressure. roger

In that case, it's time to work out a starting load.

I've got 5 cases I measured up here, using the following procedure:

Weigh empty case with old fired primer pressed in
Fill case to bottom of neck with water
Weigh wet case

Rinse and repeat for 5 cases.

I come up with 16.9gr, 17gr, 17.1gr, 16.9gr, 16.8gr of H2O.

Now, I have on hand about 90 55gr FMJ-BT bullets, and most of a 1lb can of IMR4198 powder. I'll have to get some small rifle primers.

Best I can tell, I would need to work up from a low number-like 12gr, see what it does. Or ask someone with a program that calculates it for me.

All that is a few weeks off, though I need to get the gun chambered first.

EDIT:

Looking at the Hodgdon reloading data site, they list the following for the 21gr H2O capacity .221 Fireball case:

MAX LOAD
.221 Fireball IMR4198 55gr bullet 16.4grC 51,700CUP

Velocity from a 10.75" barrel was 2315FPS.

Now, I assume the C means Compressed Load, and since no starting load data was given that this is a never-exceed load.

My case has a smaller capacity, 17gr vs 21gr of the .221FB, but the .22 Remington Jet case capacity of 18gr is pretty close too-just can't find load data for it.

you have to go back in time for 22 Jet reloading data.
new books won't have it.

As to the quality of nickel plated brass, I have reformed nickel 7x57 case to 257 Ackley Imp. and fireformed them with a book max 257 Robts load, They formed beautifully with one fireing, and shot very accurate in the process..PIstol brass I have no clue, but I would certainly give it a try and find out.

Alright-so since I acquired a .256 Magnum die set, I formed 10 new .357 mag's into .220 Meteorites today. MUCH better looking case neck when forming with a .25 cal step in the line.

Using the new die order as follows:

.30 cal neck down die
.256 Magnum FL die
anneal case neck and shoulder
.220 Meteorite FL die

I get cases that have correct length necks (0.185") are the same length at the shoulder, the shoulder area forms up with almost no wrinkles or lines in the brass. (Unless I get too much lube on them, then I get lube marks)

Much nicer looking cases-the case necks are longer, there are fewer striations in the brass, and the neck length is perfect to seat a 55gr Hornady FMJ-BT right to the middle of the cannelure, and the base of the bullet is right even with the bottom of the neck. No intrusion into the shoulder area.

I also had to go ahead and make up a dummy of .256 Magnum with an 85 grain FBHP. I have 15 of those bullets laying around that are from the 60's that I'll never likely use, so I figured make up a dummy to measure from, just in case.

This is fun!

I have a good bit of 22jet( Rifle) data I can supply you. If you want let me know.Please read all the comments thoroughly and use safe approaches roger

Alright, load development has started-some Quickload data for perusal:

55gr Hornady #2267B


16.5Gr N-120 , 100% density, 44,597 psi, 2655 fps-16" barrel

17.5gr N-120 , 106.8% density, 53,439 psi, 2794 fps-16" barrel 2910 fps 20" barrel

15.5gr IMR4198, 96.3% density, 38,316 psi, 2514 fps 16" barrel

17.5gr IMR4198, 108.7% density, 54,299 psi, 2818 fps 16" barrel.


46gr Speer #1024


17.5gr IMR4198, 104% density, 43,803 psi, 2853 fps 16" barrel.

18.5gr IMR4198, 104% density, 51,801 psi, 3012 fps, 16" barrel.

19.9gr N120, 110.9% density, 54,950 psi, 3074 fps, 16" barrel.

It looks like H110/W296, LilGun, IMR4227, 2400, Alliant Reloader-7 will all be usable although not as good as IMR4198, AA1680, or N120.

N110 would allow me to get more powder into the case. but it's a faster powder. I'm not so sure I need a less bulky powder, it's 800g/L vs N120's 860g/L.

For what it is worth I size .357 mag. brass down to .256 Win. in one step with my .256 Wm. sizing die. I have had good results with both nickel plated and all brass cases. I anneal the brass first then apply a thin coat of Imperial sizing die wax. I do size a little, back off then size a little more. I just don't try to size in one fast swoop.

Hip

My wildcatting days are over, and it was fun..It can be best explained by:

"The difference in men and boys is the cost of men,s toys"

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
My wildcatting days are over, and it was fun..It can be best explained by:

"The difference in men and boys is the cost of men,s toys"

roger