Seems like this cartridge will do what I need it to, and very effeciently if 1/2 of what I read is true. I would guess that barrel life would be better than everything close w/exception of the 260 which is more recoil than I want and too tough on Coyote pelts as well.

If I can be convinced that making brass in not a PITA, I am sold. I already have a Gibbs and an Ackley and I don't want to have to fire form to get a good case the first time around. I would think 260 brass will prevent me from having to wait for the necks to stretch out which I assume will be the problem with 243 brass, but the 260 brass may have to be turned which takes up time, but is not the end of the world. Would hope that running either case through dies then trimming to proper length (in the case of the 260) would get me most if not all the way there.

Need some knowledgeable advice, so those that are merely guessing, please make sure your guesses are good

Deke.

I'm sure I missed an earlier post but why a 25 Souper over say a 257 Roberts?

Talk to the people that are making the reamer to chamber your rifle and chambering the rifle. Turning the necks is only necessary if they are too thick to properly fit the chamber. We don't know how big the neck area of the chamber is going to be, but the maker of the reamer and whoever is chambering the barrel should know.

The 7x57 case is not as effecient as the 308 case, and therefore the 308 case is less expensive to shoot, has less felt recoil, less muzzle blast, and better barrel life. All of these things are important since it will be a starter rifle for kids as well as a Silhouette rifle that I expect to average around 700rds a year with so barrel life is pretty important. The Souper ballistics are between a 257Rob and 257RobAI (some will argue same as AI, but I am not sure about that), and again, with less powder than both. If forming Souper cases are less trouble than the AI, then it is my choice based on the above. I consider the ballistic benefits over the standard Roberts worth the effort in forming brass, but not if it means fireforming.

If I have to turn the necks I am not discouraged. The question really is, can the neck and shoulder for the Souper be formed without fireforming so it is precise as new factory brass for lets say a 260Rem case? After the first firing, I will expect well made/formed brass (whether done by me or a factory) to conform to a chamber and be as precise as the other.

Hope that gives a better idea of what I am asking.

Deke.

Since what you are asking about is an entirely custom chamber, I know of no factory chambering the .25 Souper (.25/.308)... You should be able to specify. In the days when this meant necking down the .308 (forgive me, 7.62x51mm NATO cases surplused by your friends in the guard...) THEN you might need to worry about thick necks.

I suspect you could fire factory .243 and get acceptable cases. Might be a bit short... I have known a few who fired .270 (.27/'06) in their '06 and had to start over forming the case back to .270 which work hardens things... requires annealing...

But with the .260 available (or the 7/08), unless you specify a "tight" neck, I doubt that thickening would be unacceptable. And trimming to length... Again, how "custom" will this chamber be. As said, ask the owner of the reamer and you should have a real good idea of how much work you will need to do. luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
The 7x57 case is not as effecient as the 308 case, and therefore the 308 case is less expensive to shoot, has less felt recoil, less muzzle blast, and better barrel life.

Deke

How exactly did you arrive at those conclusions??? If you push a 25 caliber 120 grain bullet down the barrel at 3000 fps in front of 40 grains of powder it doesn't make any difference if it comes out of a 7x57 or a 308 based case. At least not enough difference to worry about.

But regardless, I think you are being too anal about the whole thing. The 25 Souper, and its predecessor the 25 L&W, have been around since WW II and forming cases was never a problem. In fact its easier today than it has ever been because you have more brass to choose from. Just run them into you FL die, load and shoot.

JMHO

Ray

Alright, now we are getting somewhere.

Again, I don't want to fireform. This is fine with my hunting only rifles cause they don't get the use that this gun will. I will be hunting Pronghorn and Coyote with it, using it for silhouettes, and the kids learning with it. Fireforming will produce too short of a neck and it does make a difference on a gun that you want to be 1/2MOA or better first firing and beyond, not to mention if I am forming 100 cases a year, doing that with loaded ammo is a waste.

I might be too anal, but thats okay. I want this rifle to be the best that I can afford, and half the fun is trying to figure all this stuff out. If running 260brass (again I want the neck to be at least factory spec lenth, not shorter) through my die will give me outside dimensions on par with factory brass, I believe the first firing will be good enough. I was hoping I would come across someone that has done this specifically with the 25 Souper. I have done other things with other cats, and found that they aren't all the same

As far as comparing the 7x57 and 308, the reasoning is simple, same or less amount of same powder getting more velocity with all else being the same means more efficient. More powder/gas in with same barrel volume means more muzzle blast and felt recoil. Maybe not enough to some, but if you have to get a new barrel, why not the best cartridge for your intended use? 40gr of the same will not produce the same velocity in the two cases, been there, done that, others have discovered the same thing, almost impossible to convince me otherwise.

The deep throated 250 sounds like fun, but I want a little more for 500m Rams since it will already be a challenge using less than a 6.5.

Will talk to the reamer and die folks when I can.

Deke.

quote:

As far as comparing the 7x57 and 308, the reasoning is simple, same or less amount of same powder getting more velocity

That is something I never really saw comparing my 6mm and my 243. If you have then that is great. If you can feel the difference in 1 or 2 grs of powder and see a difference in barrel wear you are a far better person than I am.

It would be real boring if we all used the same cartridge. Best of luck I hope it works out for you.

If your chamber is cut properly there should be no problem with about any 243,308 or whatever. I used some nice 260 brass and just necked it down until it fit in the chamber with light pressure and loaded full power and went hunting. Worked fine. I usually make mine out of L.C NM brass. It is so consistent in weight etc and I have a lot. After necking it down I use an old Marquart outside turner to just clean ut the neck and that is all. Wonderful cartridge in spite of what some people say.
Have a ball.
Aloha, Mark

Ramrod, I can tell your a good guy and I like your motto. I can't say what happens at the .243 end from experience, but it appears that the 6mm is stronger than the .243. At the 7mm end, the 08 is stonger than the 57 and that is where my experience is. It appears that there is a switching in the middle (perhaps @ 257 ) so maybe this is moot.

Maybe I should be focusing on different things, like the merits of a longer vs shorter case....

Bohica, I assume you might be talking about the vaunted Souper or 25/08.....

Perhaps Bartsche is advocated a shorter case with his deep throated 250/3000, which got me lookin again... Explain the benefits of the different throats if you will. Have also wondered about longer necks, and please take a stab at that one if they are different topics

How about a 250/3000 AI (still looks pretty effecient, maybe stronger than the Roberts, and not an overbore situation, like I think the Roberts AI might be.....)? Would have to fireform with an AI, but maybe I develop a varmint round out of the stock brass, until I get 50 (wonder how accurate they would be.... then develop my 115 Berger load, using the stock brass loads on Coyotes which would probably keep pace with replinishing my fully formed needs..... Looks like you guys got me on the fence again and thats okay

Deke.

Dear Deke,
I have been shooting the 250 Sav AI for over 25 yrs and it is one neat case. Unfortunately there are a few drawbacks to the cartridge, none that cannot be overcome-but work, that make it more time consuming at first. Brass is sometimes difficult to find and then either too brittle [Win] or too soft [Re] and I will NOT use the nickle plated cases in my dies or gun. This is just me so let the flames flare!
If the AI chamber is cut properly the fireforming is a snap. Load a case and shoot. I fireform ALL my Wildcat cases with Bullseye and a cheap bullet. I find this the easiest and easiest on the brass. For the 250 Savage? My wonderful wife gifted me many moons ago with a set of form dies for the 250 Savage from Redding. I then make my brass from Lake City NM 308 brass, fireform it in the IMP chamber and then load as needed. I do not, however, shoot anything over 100 grs. Wildcat Emeritus P.O. Ackley told me himself way back in the early seventies that NO caliber was at it`s best with either the heaviest bullets made nor the lightest. Hence I stick with the 100s and have found nothing I care to shoot here in Oregon that I need more bullet for. I have NOT tried to take a bear with it but would not hesitate as long as the shot was in the 50-200 yd area and not running hell bent for election. I use the old Nosler Solid Base bullets and they kill fast and clean.
Feeding with the short case and the improved shoulder may take a bit of work but is easily possible. So here you have it!
The 250 Savage[AI] easily gets the velocity of, say, a 257 Roberts or the IMP with a short barrel and less powder burned. But you gotta run the pressures up to do this. No big thing as long as you are careful. Once you get your cases made you will find it a joy to shoot. Mild recoil and VERY accurate! If you`re smart you`ll try to keep track of the spent cases as we know now they are a bit of work.
NOW! The 25 Souper? Again I use the Lake City NM cases as they are virtually indestructible and Very consistent in weight and quality--plust I have lots of them! No fireforming needed. They feed like S$%^ through a goose and with the same 100gr bullet easily reach the 25-06 or better with a [still] short barrel which I like. Brass, and I mean GOOD brass, is easily available. Lapua, PMC? Whatever blows your skirt up. Both the 25 Souper and the 250 Sav AI seem to be really easy to find accurate loads for. I have been using IMR 4350 for years now and was going to try some of the new powders but the #$$%%^^& Enviropukes closed the only range in the county so that has been backburnered. I am sure with the new stuff one could easily improve on the velocity and accuracy.
Hunting season rolls aroiund and then the task come as to which rifle to grab! When I hunt the Eastern side I usually take the 25 Souper or possibly my 264 Win. as the shots are longer for deer and elk. Here on the coast it is the short, light 250 AI. Both [250 and the 25 Souper]wear 1 3/4-5 Redfield glass and weigh less than 6.0. I am old and do not take shots I think might pose a problem as to killing and retreiving. I NEVER look down off the roads--only up!
Whichever way you ultimately decide to go will be enjoyed. Both are very accurate and mild kicking. Both are relatively easy on barrels so barrel life is extended. When someone says "Why bother with this Wildcat stuff? Get a 25-06"? Tell them you are an AMERICAN and a Wildcatter and want to be a bit different--stick your nose in the air and walk away.
Aloha and Enjoy! Mark

well if the 7x57 case is that much less efficient than the 308, why is it that when loaded with the same bullet, with powder charges of less than a grain or 2 difference, the 6mm is 200 fps faster than the 243, last I checked the 243 and 308 were the same case, and the 7x57 is the parent case of the 6mm.
Build what you want but don't try to pass of BS as reasoning for it.
RR

RR,

Did not intend to offend you. Read my last post more closely. On the 7mm side where I am very experienced and conversed, a large majority that are much more qualified have arrived at the same conclusions. On the 6mm end, I don't know that I have been in tune with a debate between the two. Perhaps one is more ideal at one end of the spectrum than the other, weirder things have been true.... BTW, given same barrel length/twist/bullet, your 6mm and .243 conclusion appears to be true, but certainly exagerated. So who is trying to pass the BS?

Deke.

not exagerated, I shoot them both, have chrony'd them many times, not offended just stating my conclusions from my own tests. and the 7mm bit doesn't hold water, the 243 is closer to 257 dia than 284 is, so if the 6mm is more efficient than the 243, how can the 25 souper be more efficient than the 257 rob? The 7x57 is downloaded due to weak actions in alot of them, my guess is loaded to the same pressures the 7x57 will outperform the 7mm/08, and I have just a bit of experience with the 7mm's also.
RR

quote:

As far as comparing the 7x57 and 308, the reasoning is simple, same or less amount of same powder getting more velocity with all else being the same means more efficient

I guess it depends on what you are calling efficiency . I have played very little with the 7-08 but have shot a lot of 6mm, 243, 257 and 7x57. So since I didn't have 7-08 data to compare to my 7x57 for an apples to apples I turned to Loadtech

Using their data gross case capacity of the 7x57 is 3.2% larger than a 7-08. So that tells me that yes same powder charge in both cases the 7-08 will give higher velocity because the pressure will be higher.

Looking at both cases with a 100gr Part using RL15 and std OAL. The 7-08 max load is 41grs giving 61,000psi, 2810fps with a load density of 91%. The same 41grs in a 7x57 calculates 2765fps however the pressure is only 51,000psi and load density is only 86%.

So to me the 61,000 would be harder on the barrel than 51,000. Loaded to the same pressure the 7x57 would take more powder. At 61,000 in a 7x57 it is 44grs of powder velocity is 2905fps.

Since the 5x57 is normally in a long action the 7-08 in a short so you also have the option to seat the bullet out further increasing the net capacity.

Yes I agree with you same powder charge in a 7-08 and 7-57 the 7-08 will probably give a higher velocity due to less case capacity. Loaded to equal pressure the 7x57 will give higher velocity due to the greater net capacity.

Using your criteria a 257BR would be even more efficient. Get a 6mmBR reamer and a 257 throater and off you go. As a comparison a 6mmBR with 100gr bullet 30.7grs rl15 gives 2870 58750psi a 243 the lowest RL15 charge I could get was 33.7 velocity 2795 but only 51,570psi.

Yes normally a smaller case will use less powder to get to the same velocity as a larger case. Max velocity capacity and pressure wins every time.

You have done your homework. You are happy with your choice. It is your $$ go with what you are happy with.

Still not completely decided.

Great data from all. If the 7x57 case is as strong (I really don't know TBH....), then same pressures for each and it is very close to a draw. Load to specified pressures and it is isn't that close. The BR is very effecient, but I need more velocity than that. In the VERY back of my mind is also the 6XC (if only they made a 6.34XC.... then maybe they will????), but the 6 may be too light on the 500m Rams (as if .34mm will make all that much difference, but maybe it will.....).

Have thought why the Souper was never picked up. I wonder if it is so close to 6.5mm and 6mm that the factories feared someone would get the wrong ammo in one or the other (kinda like the 280 having to be made longer than the 06 and 270 etc.....).

Anyways, enough of the babble. This is a thinkin work in the progress at the moment.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Still not completely decided.

Have thought why the Souper was never picked up.

Non of the 25 calibers have lasted the test of time. Sales dwindled to near nothing on them all. They just didn't have a large appeal for the masses. Couple this with the fact that the 25 souper brings nothing new to the table and you have no incentive for investment. JMHO roger

Dittoes on what Roger said. With the 257 Roberts on one side and the 25-06 on the other, there isn't much room for anything in between.

The 25 caliber has never caught on in Competition circles because of the lack of good match grade bullets in that size. Now that we have super quality bullets in 6mm and 6.5mm it would take something short of a miracle for the 25 to gain any kind of a following.

JMHO

Ray

as far as fireforming the 250 AI just load the brass and shoot you will be suprised af the speed and accuracy of both. i have been shooting 75 gr.to 100 gr. from barnes to the v-max and the recoil and powder use is very efficent and with the case life extended it is cheap to shoot. if you need bullets for varments to large deer someone makes them.some have said that it is handicapped by bullet weights, but i haven't seen it.i thought about the souper but 250 AI won out.

Efficiency?
I would think this term would REALLY apply if a guy were shooting 1000s of rounds a year. THEN it would be important to me. This is VERY true in my 17s and the 14 but in the 25s and 6.5? When I am lucky to fire 150 /yr or so I really don`t give much of a hoot about efficiency! As long as accuracy is to my specs I am happy. When I was hunting Hawaii and the Kau Desert and the shots were 400-500 for goats and pigs I loaded my 264 Win with 75.3/H-870/129 Hornady and STILL got over 3400 rounds out of the barrel [about 15 yrs] before changing it to an identical 23" McGowan 6.5/1-10 barrel. I was concerned about barrel life etc and shot accordingly. Barrel wasn`t allowed to get too hot and was cleaned properly. I applaud all of you folks that have the ranges and such that allow you the ability to shoot as much as you do. Believe me--this is NOT sarcasm at all! Here in my area all our ranges for high power are gone [thanks to the enviropukes] and shooting in the forests is not safe. When I got here in 1992 there was about nothing I enjoyed more than going to the local range and shooting first thing in the morning. No other shooters around--quiet--cup of coffee? What else gets much better. ALL gone now! Support your local range when you can. It may be gone tomorrow.
Aloha, Mark

I have been shooting the 25 Souper since 1991 and have made all of my cases from Winchester/Olin and Norma 243 brass. I make 100 at a time with a process that includes trimming, deburring, and segregating the cases by weight. The rifle is a Ruger 77 RSI with an 18.5" barrel, obviously not the right vehicle for maximum accuracy and velocity, but it does 2920 fps and 1.25 MOA with the 100 grain Partition and is a little tighter grouper with the 100 grain BT.

I tried the 250-3000 AI in 2 different rifles and didn't particularly care for it. I found the same 2 problems with brass that Mark cited, brittle Winchester/Olin brass the would split shoulders after 4 or 5 rounds and soft Remington brass that would never get over 100 fps more velocity than the parent without showing pressure signs.

In .257" bore SA rifles I like the 25 Souper in shorter barreled rifles and the 25-284 in barrels 23" or longer. But I also like the 25 WSSM in Winchester/USRA 70 Ultimate Shadow combination and everybody knows how much they suck, so what do I know?

Jeff

you don't need to ackley the bob
to get it's velocity.
that is what they make +p brass for.
almost the exact loads the brass does the work.

In Silhouette comps I may shoot 1,000+ a year. I don't like fireforming, but may do it anyway. The Souper seems to be a simple case of running the brass through a sizing die and maybe some trimming and I am there. Berger does make a 115gr match bullet with a pretty good BC, but not nearly as good as the 6's and 6.5's, but between 200-500m maybe good enough. If there was a 120gr match bullet, BC's would be as good, and I probably would have already decided.

Deke.

Whenever I start necking-up/down, one of the things I look at is availability of good quality brass. IMHO, the Lapua .243 brass is probably the best starting point for a Souper.

Hank

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Seems like this cartridge will do what I need it to, and very effeciently if 1/2 of what I read is true. I would guess that barrel life would be better than everything close w/exception of the 260 which is more recoil than I want and too tough on Coyote pelts as well.

If I can be convinced that making brass in not a PITA, I am sold. I already have a Gibbs and an Ackley and I don't want to have to fire form to get a good case the first time around. I would think 260 brass will prevent me from having to wait for the necks to stretch out which I assume will be the problem with 243 brass, but the 260 brass may have to be turned which takes up time, but is not the end of the world. Would hope that running either case through dies then trimming to proper length (in the case of the 260) would get me most if not all the way there.

Need some knowledgeable advice, so those that are merely guessing, please make sure your guesses are good

Deke.

I wouldn't think that making .25 Souper cases would be any more difficult than running a 7mm-08, .260, or .243 case through a full-length .25 Souper die. With the 7mm-08 case, you might have to use the bullet seating die as an intermediate step, though, as I had to do this when making 25-284 cases from .284 brass.

John

i quit using the 243 cases i find that the 260 case works best,after loading a batch ,i take a black sharpie and color the primers black so i dont confuse them for 260's .

If you are really not wanting to fire form brass you aught to consider a .257 DGR. You use .260 brass ans size it. You have a case thats probably close to 90% of what it will be after. Performance is right there at the same spot.
Maybe the Durham Jet?


Just throwing them into the pot, somebody else can stir.

The 25-308 is an awsome round i been messing w/it for approx 2 years,i use 7-08 brass but preffer the 260 brass,never had troubles still looking to work up a load using 85 grain noslers bt.my rifle likes the heavy grn bullets,killed a big mulley at about 170 yards one shoot,the lighter grn are nice on coyotes ,i have some loads worked up if you would like to try some of them let me know.