Here is a brief update on the Project I started. The rifle weighs 6.5 lbs and has a 16.25" barrel. The round is a blown out 300 WSM. I have more testing to do, but these loads are promising.
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300 gr. Nosler Partition Protected Point
69 gr. IMR 4198, 2578 FPS
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350 gr. Hornady Flat Point
62 gr. IMR 4198, 2360 FPS
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400 gr. Barnes Semi-Spitzer Original
73 gr. surplus WC-844 (H-335), 2099 FPS
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A longer barrel will certianly produce higher velocities. Here are some pics of the rifle and ammo. For more pics, see the Photo Gallery Link.



Photo Gallery

O.k., good work.
Now get busy on the 416. But for crying out loud, give it a 20" bbl!
That would maybe get you another 100 fps on those bullet weights, which would be just perfect!
Did you throat that for 2.8" COL?

The throat is set for the 400 gr Barnes SSP at 2.82". I think a 20" barrel would give you more than 100 fps more. The 16" one here is to serve a specific purpose, to be light and small, with power second. My buddy has the 416 barrel all ready to go. He is waiting on time, money and an action. He'll probably get this one when I go to the Rem 660.

John,

Now that your putting a number of loads through your rifle, have there been any headspacing problems.

The case you sent me shows .540 on the shoulder and .485 on the neck. Seems real thin.

Have you experienced any misfires?

Are you going to load any 500 gr. slugs for your gun?

With the fps you have achieved with the lighter slugs, do you think 2150 can be done with a 500 grainer?

I know your using a very short barrel, so if you manage 2050 fps with a 500, then 2150 should not be a problem with a 20" barrel.

BTW, very nice looking rifle you built up.

Reading this post and the one you posted at Shortmags, you havn't tested any 3031 loads as of yet. Real curious as to how your case will do with this powder.

Have you had any Load Calc figures for your loads as to pressure levels.

Don't mean to be bugging you with all these questions, but still very interested in your progress. Holding off on mine until your fully deveolped.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

Roger,
The headspacing is fine. There are many other rounds out there with less control, i.e. 300 whisper, 375 Whelen/Scovill, ect. I had one misfire yesterday, but I assure you it was not a headspace issue. It was the primer. I seated it into the press by hand. I measured the headspace in a headspace measuring chamber, and the misfire is exactly the same as a case fired out of the rifle. The 3031 is stting there waiting for me to get to it. The throat in my rifle is not
made for a 500 gr bullet. It could be done, but the seating depth will put the base of the bullet below the neck, which cuts down on powder cap. The Win 70 WSM action mag box is long enough to handle the 500 gr bullets, 3.080". I doubt the 2050 woulld be met in a 16" barrel. I feel that you could reach the 2150 in a longer barrel. Find someone with quickload like Jude to run the numbers and see where the 500 gets that velocity. I have found the quickload stuff that Jude ran to be very very close to reality. Amazingly close. The pressures are in the 55,000 range. The dies still arn't here, hopefully this week they say. I havent been sizing the necks after fireforming. Just seating a bullet into the neck. The tension varies a bit, so the velocities should be a bit closer once I start sizing.

i have my 700 458x2 sitting here waiting for the go ahead!
thanks
woofer

Your rifle and it's barrel length look great to me. Of course if you deside to hunt Blue Whale you might want to go for that extra 100 ft./ sec. and an additional 2" to your barrel length.

John..That combo is awesome! There isn't a grizzly in the world that would hang around if he knew what you had there. It makes me think about having one of them short 458's made up. Hmmmmmmmm

Just one question..I neck up 284 Win to 375 and that's a .098 jump in diameter. Your ctg is a .150 jump..are the necks kinda thin?? Do you lose a lot of cases when necking up so much???

[ 11-10-2003, 00:28: Message edited by: old4x4 ]

i have to bring this up, guys..

the 458 jamison is within 2 grains of case capacity, as the jamison line is basically the wsm cases.

for what it's worth, it's 90 grains of water for the jamison...

with a 16" barrel, quickload projects , at 60,000psi 2.86 oal
2034 with 480 woodleighs
1964 with 500
2275 with barnes 350 x
2100 with barnes x 400

this ONLY picks up 75-100 fps with a 22" barrel? weird

oh, and for those that think QL loads CANT be replicated in the real word... as "ql will be too fast and the pressure rated too low" which, btw, is bs.

using the 350 fp load
ql projects 2215 fps 47k or so

using the nosler data
ql projects 2478 50kpis or so

sounds like a nice setup.. and recoil will be tolerable

jeffe

Woofer,
I am very close to taking the job. It is more work than just rechambering. The rails need opening, the mag altered, and the extractor retaining lip on some rems hits the web before the bolt face contacts the back of the case. I'll contact you with a price soon,

old 4x4,
I blow the cases out in a fireforming gun with Cream of Wheat rather than using an expander. I lose 5% to 20% depending on how cold the brass is when it is fired. The necks are .011" to .012" thick. Plenty for me and same as a 458 Win Mag.

BTW, my velocity guess takes into account that you won't get a 400g .416" to go as fast as a 400g .458", AEBE.

As a gereral rule, the same case with same wieght bullets, but of different caliber, the bigger dia will shoot faster at equal max pressures. I'd be interested in any exception of the rule.

Exactly my point!
Neck down to .416", same bullet weights V+100 fps with 20" bbl. It would seem like more, but I am taking into account exactly what you mention.
BUT, only one way to know for sure...

Nice rifle. The case looks like a rimless .450 Alaskan, actually it is almost identical.
You could probably use the Alaskan data and slowly increase the charges to get to the 55 K psi area.

Nice, but isn't the Marlin Guide gun pretty much the same? 400 grainers at 2000 fps or more.

DaveC,

Ya if John would have brought the shoulder out another .2", it would be very close.

I was getting 2150 average with 400 grainers in a 450 AK, out of a 71. In a bolt, should be able to get a little more. Hopefully, with the needed oal for a short action, 2150 with a 500 possible. Let's hope.

Roger QSL

Roger,

I am a great fan of the WSM case but 2150 fps with a 500 gr pill.

Am I wrong or does the 458 Win Mag have a hard time getting an honest 2100 fps out of a 22" barrel using the 500 gr SP or FMJ, please explain how the smaller case capacity of the WSM will do this?

Not flaming here at all, just want to know the reasons behind your projection?

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fiftydriver,

No problem on your questioning the hoped for Magic 2150.

The WSM case is larger at the base then the HH that's used for the 458. Granted, it's shorter, but from reading other posts as to capacity, it might be able to get enough of the right powder to get there or very close.

I loaded and shot a 450 Alaskan for a while and getting 2150 with a 400 was not a problem. The 450 AK is quite similar to the WSM case except for the rim.

Using the empty case that John sent me, I was able to easily get 67 grains of 3031 into it with room for more powder. I was using that load in the 450 AK and the load was not compressed. This load is quite safe in the 71 as far as pressure is concerned. So the use of a bolt action should allow a heavier load. I'm fully aware the 500 gr. slug is longer, and should possibly use up some of that space, but I'm hoping it won't use that much. Just have to wait and see how John's series of load tests go.

I roughly formed a short 416 Rigby case to hold a 458 slug. Just a bit shorter then John's, and it held about 2 grains more than either the 458 Noveske or the 450 AK. This case was my first choice for this short 458. I'm sort of letting John spend all the bucks before pushing further ahead with this project.

If he can achieve 2150 or something very close to that, then I will probably go with his case.

Remember to, he has gotten his fps using a 16.5" barrel. I would stay with at least a 20" or even a 22". This should get me at least 100 fps over the great speeds he's accomplished so far.

Hoped this kind of clears the air for ya.

Roger QSL

Roger,
this is based off the simularities in this case and the 458 jamison....

water capacity
458 lott 110gr
458 winmag 95gr
458 jamison 90 gr
45/70 win 79gr
450 marlin 74 gr

If one looks at the 450 marlin as the HH based equilivant, one sees that the wsm line has 21.6% greater capacity over the 450 marlin. BUT, iit is also 5.6% LESS capacity than the 458 winmag.

In short, loaded to the SAME pressure, this case can not match the 458 winmag, aebe.

jiri, If you post the case capacity of this round, i'll be more than happy to run it. I "bet" it's around 90grains, right?

jeffe

I just weighed the water cap of 2 rounds that went through the rifle. I get 92.1-.5 gr water in the 458 WSM case. The 458 Win Mag case here holds 93.1 gr water. I feel that they are similar, but the Win Mag holds a bit more. I haven't done the test, but I have a theory that in equal 16.25" barrels, the WSM will be equal, or faster since it has .4" more bore to built velocity than the Win mag. Once barrel lengths are extended, the Win mag will probably win.

Imagine this with me for a moment. The next 458 WSM rifle in the works. A >6 lb rifle, 34.625" long, 16.25" barrel, 13.625" lop, 458 WSM. I have the new barrel on order, 14"T 458 CM. It will be on a Rem 660 with a synthetic stock, open sights. I'm sending it for a hard chrome finish when the metal is done.

All I want with this round is something for a short action that will give as much stopping power as possible. There are perhaps others that can do it, but I thought it would be fun to try something new.

Roger,
I'm happy to spend my money figuring it out. HDY said they shipped mt dies yesterday. I just loaded some 458 Barnes 400 gr FPs. They are a bit shorter than the SSP, but the tip dosen't flatten in the mag from recoil. They seem to hit hard, I used the same max load as the SSP. Haven't chronographed them yet. I think my two loads are going to be the 300 Nosler at 2577, and the 400 FP at the estimated 2100, ( based on the SSP's velocity). I do not plan on trying any 500s since the throat is too short for them and I don't feel like opening it up. Also, I like to be over 2100 and I don't think I'll ever get there with my short barrels. Going over 22" might help things with the 500, but you might as well go to a 458 lott or something with a long action.

[ 11-20-2003, 00:46: Message edited by: jnrifleworks ]

Roger and John,

Thanks for your resoning behind your velocity projections. I fully understand the advantage of using a shorter case to gain usable barrel length and this certainly does work, as does increase expansion ratio for the use of quicker burning powders to gain more velocity in shorter barrels.

Please do not get me wrong, this project sound like a very intresting one and one that could take the 458 cailber into many of the deer and elk forests here in Montana.

Your rifle would be a great asset in the dark timber going after mature bull elk, light, quick and delievering a very heavy blow for its size.

Keep us updated on further testing please!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fiftydriver, John, and Jeffe...

We will all just have to wait and see.

I know from reading some of Jeffe's post's, that he is interested in the new EAA double gun in 45/70.

I to am waiting for the gun to finally appear.

I would like to have it in 450 AK. A rimmed case the size of the AK should make for fine woods gun.

My question, do you think the gun there coming out with will handle the round? I sent an "E" to them some time ago and asked if heavy loaded 45/70's would be OK in the gun. There response to me was, "factory loads only". I'm hoping this was lawyer speak only. Seems if the gun can handle 06's then high pressure 45/70's shouldn't be a problem.

A re-chamber to the AK should be a very simple smith job. Just ream it out and send it back.

John, too bad your not going to try the 500's. Would sure loved to have seen the results. By the way, you should easily get your bucks back if the Novesko works.HI

Will keep monitoring this for future plans.

Roger QSL

Roger,
they are offering the mp221 in 30-06, and 308... I don't believe pressure will be the issue. Thrust might.

Judge G, if you see this, tell us about your 45/70 eaa shotgun with the inserts!!!

I emailed with eaa on this, and the paperwork STILL has not been signed. IF someone would get the SPECFICS from EAA, perhaps we could all write our congressmen.

jeffe

[ 11-20-2003, 17:42: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Just ran this at 92 grain, 16.5" barrel, 62000 psi

barnes x 300 grain
~2500

hornday 350 grain ROUND nose
~2480

hosler 300 gr pp
2600+

nice
jeffe

Just ran this at 92 grain, 16.5" barrel, 62000 psi

Jeffe,

When you use 92 grains in your comps, is this a water fill number?

Also, how would a 300 gr at 2600 in 458, compare to a 300 in 375, forgetting the long range shots on heavy animals? By heavy, I mean DG.

Roger QSL

Jeffe,
The 2600 fps you came up with on the 300 NOS PPP on a 16.5" barrel is very close to the 2577 fps I got with the same bullet in a 16.25" barrel. The load is at the top of this thread, 69 gr IMR 4198. Were you using Quick Load. I don't think I am at 62,000 psi with the load, but I guess I could be. My quick load print out shows about 55,500 psi with .5 gr more IMR 4198.

The dies showed up yesterday from HDY. They look great. Can't beat $98.50 shipped. If anyone wants them, call 1-800-338-3220, ask for Lonnie Hummel. The dies are called the 458 NOVESKE. They have the print on file. It is nothing more than a 458 x 300 WSM. I also got a neck expander die, but that was extra, $44 I think.

Roger.....less penetration but it would pack a bigger "wallop" when it hit. FtLbs of energy would be the same but it would be distributed differently.