A couple of cases to look at...the Hellcat is the Lazz Patriot necked up to .375 and the 458 WSM is the 300 WSM necked up.



A little different angle....the Lazz case length is 2.05" while the 450 Marlin and 458 WSM are 2.1"



[ 09-10-2003, 11:14: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

looks good

John....I'm going to try and expand the Lazz's neck up to .458 and see what it looks like and as soon as I get a new battery for my scale I'm going to weigh the cases both empty and full of water.

The Lazz case is "fatter" but shorter than the WSM but because the brass is so heavy (thick) I expect the internal capacity to be only a little more.

I'll also post external dimensions latter for some more comparisons.

Bill,
That sounds like a neat idea. I am looking forward to the results. I suggest that you fire form it rather than use an expander. You will get better results. Making the forming barrel isn't too hard.

John...at this point I want to do it for the sake of curiosity. I had talked to John Lazzeroni awhile back and he told me wasn't going to go past the .416 size with his short Patriot case because he wasn't satisfied that with his thicker brass he would be able to headspace it to his satisfaction. John's cartridges operate in the 67,000 psi range so I'll trust him on this one. I also don't like the idea of using the Rem 700 or Rem 7 action on a cartridge with a 0.577" head especially if you can get close to the same performance using the WSM case...the actions are a lot cheaper as is the brass.

The comparison I'm most interested in is between the 450 Marlin and your 458WSM. I have a bolt-action 450 Marlin (lightweight) and 4000 ftlb loads are quite stout in recoil but if I decide to build a 458 WSM it will be a heavier rifle built on one of the new Montana short-actions.

Bill and John,

Well I did a little Hillbilly Blacksmithing, and was able to form a case from a cut-off Rigby.

The procedure of forming was to use an old 7mm mag die,(outside case demension roughly the same as a 458) and heat with a butane torch. After getting case almost red, insert into the die and use a little force. Did this quite a few times until the neck was formed. Wound up with a case with a neck about the same length as a 450 AK. Shoulder not very sharp, but would improve with a properly formed die. Shoulder would be a triffle bigger than the Noveske. If John's will headspace as it is now done, than the shoulder would present a larger area for safe head-spacing. I used John's case as a length guide so as to approximate his for fill purpose. Using 3031 again, was able to only get 2.5 more grains of powder.

When John completes testing loads in his case, then we should have a guide to judge if the Rigby is worth pursuing. If he can get 2150 with about 70 grains of 3031, then the pressure factor should go down with the somewhat larger Rigby case.

Now if the Rigby case could be made to the Alaskan length, and blown out with same sharp shoulder, a larger and less pressure round should come of it. My orignal wish for the short Rigby.

Again, will have to wait for John's load workup on the 458 Noveske.

Roger QSL

roger.....the Lazzeroni case is about as close as you can get to the Rigby without actually being a Rigby...if is, however, a bit thicker and might have a bit less capactiry.

Gents,

How do I upload a picture? Want to send a photo of 3 cases.

Roger QSL

I talked to HDY. The dies won't be in till the end of the month. The barrel is getting blued, and I'm sanding and oiling the stock now. I'll post a pic as soon as it's done. When the dies are in, I'll post the shooting results.

Roger....check out T. Carr's post of the "African Hunt Report" Forum...it's about # 10 or so down the page....very easy.

Bill,

Where is the "African Hunt Report" located?
Been searching and no luck.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

Bill,

Sorry, I finally found it. If it were a snake......HI

Roger QSL

So the Lazz cases are even fatter than the WSMs? No wonder they get such velocities.

Bill and John,

Not sure if this is going to come through.

Photo of 4 cases:

Left to right:

450 Alaskan
458 Novesko (458x300WSM)
450 Rigby Short (not final design)
45/70 (for comparison)

The 400 gr. Speer is inserted in the cases.

Roger QSL

leo-too......here are some comparison numbers.

Diameter at base.....0.550" for WSM & 0.578" Lazz
Shoulder diameter....0.545" for WSM & 0.560" Lazz
Case length .........2.10" for WSM & 2.05" Lazz

Length to Shoulder...1.665" for WSM & 1.560" Lazz
(Approx)

The brass on the Lazz is noticably heavier.

[ 09-16-2003, 20:05: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

Bill,
Is the laz case 2.05" or 2.15" long? I thought it was shorter than the wsm. Thanks.

John...thanks for catching my mistake. The Lazzeroni short case IS 2.05" long...made the correction on my post.

I just got the first pictures of the 458 wsm rifle on my websites photo gallery. I will learn how to post them here asap.

Hi John...cute kid and the rifle looks like a real "thumper"....what does it weigh?

I don't have the offical weight, but I put it on the postal scale a while ago and got 7 lbs appx. The rifle ended up being heavier than I originaly wanted. The Win action and lam stock are part of that. I think a Browning or Rem would be the next choice. Right after the picture of Abe, he put the dummy round in the chamber ind closed the bolt. Maybe he'll turn out all right. I am going to try to link right to the pictures.
458 WSM Rifle Pictures
Photo Gallery

[ 09-26-2003, 19:08: Message edited by: jnrifleworks ]

Rifleworks, that's a real kickin-eargaplitten animal in that configuration. Hey, it appears that the rear cross-bolt doesn't go all the way through.

John,

Great photo's.

You ought call that rig "The Cruncher". It's gonna crunch at both ends.HI

How do you think head-spacing is going to be? Looks like very little shoulder.

Have you done any loading and shooting yet? Can't wait for your testing to be done.

Is 7 pounds enough for this type of heavy?

As you can see, you have gotten the juices flowing!

Keep us posted.

Almost forgot, great looking son. Should make for a fine hunter with the "Cruncher".

Roger QSL

If you're using a Winchester, have you considered designing it around 3.08" COL?
Use Lapua Mag brass, make it 2.25" long, and about a .40" long neck shoulder blown out to .570". That's about .009444"/inch of taper.
That would be perfect!
You should get about 95gr water under a 1.2" long bullet, compared to about 74gr with the 458 Win Mag.
Powley PROMISES 2400 fps with a 500gr bullet behind a compressed charge of H-380 at <52k CUP from a 24" bbl!