I have been shooting my 400 Whelen Improved (40 degree shoulder) for about a month.

I just sent it to the stockmaker for it's final fitting, so I won't be able to shoot it until about April.
In September, it's going with me to Tanzania.

Here's what I don't understand: this an easy, fairly powerful cartridge. It's not a stopping cartridge.
It was reasonably popular at one time in American hunting history, but then literally disappeared.

I realize that it's only useful if you want/need a 40 caliber hole in something, and only possible if you handload.

Still, with the number of us that are both dedicated hunters and handloaders, I can't understand why it is so rare.

The articles you have read are correct; necking up 35 Whelen brass is the simplest method. I can do it on a single pass in my sizing die, with no intermediate neck-up.

I've been spending some extra time necking down Quality Cartridge brass (cylindrical), because it is headstamped "400 Whelen", but it is more laborius since it is thick brass (but durable!), and I have to neck ream....the 35 Whelen brass doesn't require that.

I guess what surprises me is that it seems dead as far as cartridges go.
That's a pity, because it's alot of fun.

By the way, I tried (purposely) to set back the shoulder with my sizing die, so I would be aware of avoiding that problem. The CH4D dies won't let me do it. The headspace issues seems to be nonexistant for those dies.

Garrett

Well, yeah. It does look like a great round. I guess I figure most of us want a 7mm- or 30cal- mag something and then there's the bigger rounds: 338 WM and 375H&H. Not enough, 416Rem and 458 Win. After that, most every round over 30 is rare, and then take the .405" bullet size and most folks just don't even think of it. I'm sure the 425 Express is a great round: 404J performance from a rebarreled 7mm Rem; nonetheless I know of no one who has one.
Also, the headspace thing. You look and look for the round you want, and of all the filters, being able to headspace comfortably is on the top of the cut list, regarless of the anecdotal evidence.
I betcha a fully blown-out '06 case could take a 350g .416" bullet (400 would be .435" OD neck; just turn the inside to .010" thick) and send it 2400 fps, but ain't nobody building it.
Go figure.

Good article...

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

JohnnyReb,

That article you gave the link to, a chapter in Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges, an article in Precision Shooting (a few years back), and an article in Gun Digest 2006 are all that I can find written in the past 30 years about the 400 Whelen.

My point isn't that this is the best cartridge since the '06, just that I am surprised so few people are playing around with it.

It's dead, and it doesn't deserve to be.

Garrett

I know Fred at Z-Hat.com builds a few 411 Hawks which are for all practical purposes identical to the 400 Whelen.

Shooting a 300 grain bullet at 2500 will reach out to 300- 400 yds with a lot of knock down power. Does drop a bit, ie 24" at 400 yds, but still has more enery than a 30-30 at 100 yds.

Snapper

Years ago the ball got dropped in regard to the .400 Whelen and the proper dimensions. For the most part today everyone still equates the .400 Whelen with headspace problems so there will never be a lot of them built. After I did the first article that’s reprinted at Z-Hat I wrote another about my experiences in building a new one. I have this scanned and can email it to anyone who has an interest. mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

Micheal,

Thanks for your input. I read your article in Precision Shooting....well done.

Who chambered your rifle? Randy Shelby did mine...fast turn around.

What interests me a great deal about this cartidge is that its ballistics are identical (and I mean identical) to the old (and beloved) 450-400. The only difference being .408 bullets in the 450-400, and .411 bullets in the 400 Whelen.

Michael, have you tried the Quality Cartridge brass as yet? Like I said, it takes some effort to form (because of its thickness), but nice to see the correct headstamp.

Also, I must have missed this in your article, but are you shooting an Improved version? The photographs appeared to reveal a sharper shoulder.

Regards,
Garrett

Garrett, a friend here in Anchorage did the chambering and metal work on my rifle. I have the chambering reamer and have lent it out for others to use. In this new rifle I use Quality Cartridge brass only, we bought the brass first and then made the chambering reamer as close to the original as possible. I have had no issue with thickness with the QC brass.
Let me send you the article, it will clear up several things.

MP

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
Years ago the ball got dropped in regard to the .400 Whelen and the proper dimensions. For the most part today everyone still equates the .400 Whelen with headspace problems so there will never be a lot of them built. After I did the first article that’s reprinted at Z-Hat I wrote another about my experiences in building a new one. I have this scanned and can email it to anyone who has an interest. mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

A 0.012" wide shoulder to headspace is not much. I know folks make it work somehow. Dial it up on your vernier calipers and see how much this really is. You'd probably have more to headspace off if you used the case mouth.

To each his own.

MM

I have my own wildcat. Based on a blown out 280 case. I moved the shoulder forward, 40 deg and blew the case out to .458. I've used this case for 416 caliber. Just measured a case. I have .018 shoulder dia difference. If I place tape behind the case to move the brass forward. I can't get the bolt to close. That is enough to headspace my rifle anyway.

Here are a few thoughts on why the 400 whelen isn't that popular.

First off is most folks shy away from 40 and over caliber bolt actions. For those that don't, here is what they look for:

Relatively easy to come by bullets, in the 40 caliber that has been the .416" for the past 20 odd years.

Power, most of those shooting 40 cal bolt guns want to launch a 400 gr @ 2400 fps, and the various 416's can all be downloaded to match the 400 whelen.

Lastly, if you want to launch 300's @ 2400-2500, the 375 H&H makes more sense.

I guess the last nail in the coffin would be the ranges most folks gear up for considering the species you'd use a 400. The majority of that hunting would be elk and moose, and the majority of the folks looking for a big gun for that task will take a 338 win mag, flatter shooting, hits as hard, and better penetration.

Not meant as a slam on the 400, I think it's a neat round, but just some honest evaluation of why it's not more popular.

Paul H

I think you hit it pretty much on the head. I built mine simply because I was built just about everything on my case just to do it. After playing with it for awhile I was going to pull the barrel. My buddy took it when he moved to Alaska. Not sure he ever used it. He was transferred to Moscow and the rifle now sits locked in storage with his other firearms.

The 375 or 9.3 makes a lot more sense as the upper limit for even an greatly improved 06 type case.

The shoulder of the .400 Whelen is .458".
If I back the die off .005 you cannot close the bolt.

Like Michael, My honest evaluation comes from building and shooting a 411 Hawk.

I also had a nice email from Ed Stevenson regarding the 411 Hawk. He said he couldn't tell the difference out to 200 yds from the 375 H&H he carried. He likes the 411 Hawk in the 1895 now.

For Moose/Elk, I would hold right on them out to 300 yds. That's flat enough for me and gives me confidence in Griz country.

Only 63 grains of powder, no belt or headspace problems, lighter standard action with 4 down it's a lot of fun to shoot.

I sold my 338 to build this gun and have no regrets.

Snapper

Michael,

I re-read your article in Precision Shooting from December 2003. It has the reamer drawings and you mention many of the other dimensions.

I don't see the shoulder angle mentioned anywhere howver.

By the way, have you taken any game with your rifle yet? It seems like the ideal caliber for Alaska: from deer to bear.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:
Michael,

I re-read your article in Precision Shooting from December 2003. It has the reamer drawings and you mention many of the other dimensions.

I don't see the shoulder angle mentioned anywhere howver.

By the way, have you taken any game with your rifle yet? It seems like the ideal caliber for Alaska: from deer to bear.

Garrett

The new chambering reamer was made with measurements from original chambers and has a 23 degree shoulder. I no longer hunt but ran into a brown last year with a target in one hand and staple gun in the other, so may pack the .400 this summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
I no longer hunt but ran into a brown last year with a target in one hand and staple gun in the other, so may pack the .400 this summer.

Thanks for the nice chuckle that line brought.


I have a close friend (a retired "faller") who has worked the last few years on the offshore Islands helping some of the native corporations get the best grades out of their fallen timber. He used to walk the 2 or 3 miles each way from the camp to the cutting "unit(s)" every day. (He's a former competitive Marathon runner, and still likes to stay in some degreee of "shape".)

A couple of Brownies started appearing regularly about half way along his walk each morning and he re-thought the whole thing too. Finally decided a sawed off 12 gauge with slugs was a better weapon than a chain saw. Not 100% sure I agree, but then I wasn't there. I can sure appreciate how that would make the .400 Whelen feel good in the hands....

[Apparently he learned to whistle and sing a lot, too. (Big Grin)]

My cousin had a 416-06 JDJ built for his encore pistol. Out of a 15 inch barrel, he claims to be getting 2400 fps for the 350 grainers. He smacked a buck this year at around 90 yards with the thin jacketed Hawk's 300 grain bullets at 2500 fps and it blew a softball sized exit hole out the opposite shoulder.
Very efficient case for a 15 inch barrel, he claims a caseful of 4198 gives him very little muzzle flash.