Looking at all options for a hard hitting lever gun, but with more range than the 45's and 50's. This would be a rifle for Alaskan Brown Bear, Moose, and Elk. I want a box mag for longer range spitzers. I have read up on the Win1895, but may not like the scope limitations of a scout scope. I may be zeroing in on a Browning M81 wildcatted to one of the 06 wildcats such as the 358or375 Hawk. However, the idea of necking up a 300WSM interests me. I am not particularyly biased to all of the new short mags, but the fact that the Mod81 short mag is 8oz lighter than the 06 version and 16oz lighter than the 300WM version is appealing. I imagine that carrying 1# less through wet sloggy weather for a week will have its benefits. Has anyone wildcatted a 338or358or375WSM and what can you share (problems, ballistics, loads, etc.)?

Deke.

Don't have a WSM wildcat, but I bet the 338 with 225's would be just the ticket. If you're using the M70, you could stretch your COL a bit for the higher BC bullets. Take the WM ballistics, subtract 100 fps, and if that works for you, go for it. You'll likely get closer to the WM, especially if you can get up close to around 3.1" COL.

Deke,
wsm and lever gun are a logical riddle....

If you want POWER and a lever gun, rebarrel a BLR from 7 rem mag or 300 win mag to 416 taylor. It's merely a rebarrel, with minimal, if any, feedwork to be done.

jeffe

Jeffe,

I agree that the 416 Taylor does have POWER, but I am trying to stay away from a rebarrel in order to save costs. I have not had a chance to compare the two, but I would think that the 338/358/375's would be flatter shooting and would buck the wind better with their higher BC's (thinking about 250-300gr bullets). Maybe not much of a consideration if close, but it might make a difference on a windy day Elk @ 300yrds.

Deke.

Mark Dobrenski from Bozeman who posts on here once in a while has a 338 WSM I believe. If you do a search you'll find his name, and you should be able to PM him. He's a good guy, he should help you out, no problem. - Dan

Deke,
just trying to actually save you money...

if you went 375, you should go 376 steyr..

let's look at costs...

barrel
bauska
~100 bucks

gunsmith to mount and headspace barrel (assuming he has the reamer)
~100 bucks

sights and bluing..
150 bucks...

make a blr feed wsm rounds
at least 8 hours at 50 an hour....

then customs dies...
100 (ch4d)
custom reamer
100

I would also say that a 416 with a 300 gr (higher sd than a 225 375 iirc) will have excellent down range "presence"

your call...just that feeding can be a bitch

jeffe

i dont see how you are going to build this without a rebarrel. the only one i can think of is a 358 and then you have to go into the action and start replacing parts before the smith starts his fiddlin'.
the best bang for the buck would be a used 81 in 7mag. buy a barrel and have the gun chambered in a semi-standard round [416 taylor] or just a plain old 338 mag. mucho less headaches.
unless you start with the 81 short mag action i can imagine some serious headpounding happening. you are still going to rebarrel. custom reamer/dies, fireforming brass etc = pain in the ass and mucho $.
i always thought the wsm in a 416 would be the BEST little carry gun ever built. then i started pricing things and found out i would be out a ton of $ and still had to do brass work before i could even shoot it.
anyway, do what you must but a wildcat based blr in a shortmag is not a budget adventure......
woofer

I'm on my third 338WSM now, two on M70 short actions and the last one on an MRC short action. In the longer magazine MRC (magazine 3.114" capacity,) the cartridge duplicates the 338WSM with comparable bullets, at least through the 225's. Have no clue what changes are necessary for your concept but the changes in the M70's are minimal requiring only a WSM follower available from USRAC, depending on the donor action. With the MRC there were no changes required.

Just to clarify things a bit. The BLR/Mod81 is now offered in a 300WSM, so I would think that necking it up as big as 375 would not present the feeding problems and other issues. I guess the same logic could be followed with necking up a 300WinMag since this rifle is also chambered in this cartridge. So what do you think about necking up a BLR/Mod81 chambered in 300WSM or 300WinMag to a 358 or 375?

Deke.

Deke,
with that in consideration, i would think the 375 OR 416 wsm would be the best route. I am a die hard 358 fan... but bullet selection if far better in 375 or 416

jeffe

Jeffe,

Though I have never owned one, I am also keen on the 358. I know that mainstream bullet manufacturers don't offer as much with the 358, but have you tried some of the others (Kodiak, Woodleigh, Hawk, etc.)?

Deke.

Deke,
I built my first 358 on a 1903a3 about 14 years ago... might have only been 12... i think i've shot nearly every .358 bullet out there in it... my favorite load is the sierra 225 gameking, at 2450-2500 depending.... this is a BRUTAL load in a BLR due to stock design, from the bench.

I have 358s in the 1903, a savage 99 in 358, and an ultralight mexican mauser rig i did... it will flat take ANYTHING in north america... and, "short range cart" may arse... the first gun writer that said that was too lazy to TRY to load it.... yep, big fat RN's run out of steam pretty quick... but the GK has a similar BC as the 165 gr 308 round... and is luanched all of 100 fps slower...

and the 308 is a 700-1000 yard gun.

I have often thought of redoing one of mine into a wsm... yet I would only pick up 150 fps.. and, in a blr, that would SUCK. I have a friend with a blr...

just for giggles, a 358 blr "new old stock" would run you about 600 TOPS and then you have no wildcat issues at all

jeffe

there isn't an animal around that a premium 358 bullet is not made for. the bullet selection argument is hooey when comparing this caliber to 338 or 375. if you want a 358 the bullets are there. the new 225 xxx bullet comes to mind. if that shoots in your gun grab an extra box of hornady 200 sp's and your off to hunt anything in north america.
you are still going to rebarrel though! you might be able to save a little cash by buying a take-off cheap. if there is enough shank left to re-thread for your browning then you are in. a real bonus would be to get one with sights on it in a gloss. if the smith is careful you wont need to reblue or install sights
woofer

Jeffe,

I have read that most Alaskan guides set the min client Brown Bear ballistics at 338WinMag. With that being the case the 358Win would not meet that minimum. I am thinking 250gr bullet of .338 or larger at a minimum of 2650fps. As I understand it, a guide in Alaska for a non-resident hunter is mandatory for Brown Bear so those are the rules I have to play by. Therefore, the 358 & 375 Hawks are the minimum. I figure the WSM's and WM's might be a little more powerful, they all should be doable in the BLR/Mod81, and that is why I am considering the Hawks/WM's/WSM's.

Deke.

Deke-Dan B is write in part, that is to say that I live in Bozeman and I do have a 338/300 WSM (don't know about the good guy part...grins).

Bob, has given me a ton of help in my work to develope loads, to date this is what I think. (and I do appreciate al of your help Bob)

Mine is on a M70 short with a 21" Schneider tube on it.

Most of my work to date has been with the lightweights (185-210) and I have just started in on the 225 and 250's I'll finish with them after the spring bruin season is over.

To date, it has been a bit faster than my 338/06 and a bit slower than most 338's I've been around. I am talking about 100 fps on each for the most part.

I can run the 200's at 2900 to just under 3.

The 210's have been in the 2850 to 2950 range.

I asked Bob a while back about the 250's and he thought I'd be in the 2600 range, and after testing just one load I'd say he is about spot on.

It's a neat lil round, easy on the shoulder and yet it has a bit of spark to it.

Never thought about doing one on a BLR but it seems to me there clip is a straight line so I'd think it would feed just fine.

Just my thoughts....let me know if I can help out.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

ps try as I may I cannot get the 185 TS's to shoot, for what that is worth. Not a heck of a lot to me as there is a slug of slugs (get it) that will work just fine.

Hey Mark, good to hear from you again. How's spring bear coming? Hope all is well with you. - dan

Spring bruins have been wonderful. It closes in many areas today but is still open in a few more till June 15th. The lil lady and I just got back from a 3 day trip, we looked at 9 different bruins in the days we had. No sows and no cubs which seemed a bit weird. We did see a redhead you would not believe and a blonde that was quite nice. There was 3 or 4 browns (one we would of taken had we been able to catch the rutting old boar) and then some blackies also.

All in all it was a wonderful time to be out!

C-Ya

When you comeing back this way?

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

The 348Win case has a lot of powder capacity for a lever gun. The 348 Winchester Ackley Improved, or a 375 Alaskan or 416 Alaskan would fill the bill nicely. Of course, you'd have to find a Model '71 somewhere. Good luck.

Another option would be to rebarrel a 95 Marlin and simply shorten the improved cartridge enough to fit in a 95 Marlin action. Granted, you'd still have a tubular magazine, but it's not all bad. You can always load a spitzer bullet in the first case and rack it on up into the chamber, then load the tube with .348 250gr Barnes Originals Flat Points (Lead core). That would meet your sectional density requirement and probably give you more range than the big bore Alaskan cartridges. Barnes Originals are also available in .375, but not heavier than 250gr. If you're hunting big bears, this is about the smallest cartridge I'd feel comfortable with in a lever gun. Even then, I'd want someone next to me with a .375 H&H.

Just another half-baked brain storm.

I originally went through the 348 scenarios and although I believe it is a beautiful lever gun I want to go box max for the spitzers. One day I hope to get a 71 and restore it with engraving, etc.

I might be doing the chambered round spitzer followed up w/flat points in my 3030Ackley this fall for deer, but did not want to do that with the BIG lever gun. My options seem best with the BLR since the action is more contained (when compared to Win1895, side ejection less susceptible to moisture and other stuff, all moving parts within action, etc.), can take a conventional top mount scope w/quick release rings (I don't want a scout system).

My dilemna now is what chamber to start with. I have gotten off the 300WSM since it involves a new rifle which comes with the BS safety (I want a real lever gun). Which case necked up to 338 or larger will have the most volume, the 7mmRemMag or 300WinMag (both are chambered in the BLR)? If there are any out there wishing to calc that it would be a real help. Will one of the two allow longer seating of the bullets (they must all fit in the magazine)?

Deke.

the 300 Win Mag necked up to 338 has more case capacity then the 7mm necked (which ends up being the 338 Win Mag). Not a lot more, but a little. If it were mine, I'd probably look at either the 338 Win Mag or the 358 Norma Mag, and I'd lean towards the Norma. Those heavy 35 cal bullets work like a hammer on elk/moose sized game. - Dan

I haven't done any real-world side-by-side testing, but I'll tell you, when I crunched some numbers using published BC's of various flat nosed bullets and their spitzer counterparts, I was shocked at the lack of difference inside 250yd. Even 300, there's less difference than I thought there would be. A M71 might do what you want it to. And if you have the money, and don't mind cutting up a nice gun, make it a 358-348 Ack Imp and I'll envy the hell out of you.
Speer's 220g FN vs Nosler's 225g BT, both at 2500 fps gets you 1.3" higher with the Ballistic Tips at 300 yd. +2.75" @ 120yd vs +2.6" @ 110yd. 1777 fps vs 1955 fps. But realize this is between very unsimilar bullets. And the NBT has a better SD, so there's a bit of BC edge just in that.
Anyway, something to think of, especially since those Model 71's are soooo purty.

Dan-a friend of mine from Great Falls has done 2 or 3 barrels in what we call the 339...grins. 300 Win necked up to 338. It seems to give 100 fps to the 338.

Dogz

"GET TO THE HILL"

Mark,

Did you mean the 300WM necked up to 338 is 100fps faster than the 338WM (would make sense because the 300WM case has more volume than the 338WM)?

Deke.

Yep

.270/30-06 BLR rebarrel to .35 Whelen. On my to do list someday.

Eric

Most of the listed conversions can be done with the 9.3x62 and a whole lot less problems, and its not a wildcat...The 9.3x62 is the full equal in killing power to the 375 with a 320 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS or a 286 at 2520 FPS..

My .02 worth, the .375/.338 Mag will give you about 2500 fps with 300 grain bullets and a 24" barrel. Know two Ottmar rifles that do this, both shoot sub MOA most of the time for 3 shots.

Is the 375/338 Mag a twin of the 375 Taylor?

Deke.

Yup, same thing. - Dan

Getting back to the original question, a 375 WSM is a natural with an expansion ratio that is a dead ringer for the 308 Win. In addition, 375 bullets are short for their weight, and present fewer problems in a short case than a 338 if you want to go heavy. It will duplicate the 375 Taylor and the 375 H&H in velocity with all bullet weights.

Dan, I'm looking for a chamber reamer for the .375-.338 aka .375 Taylor. Do you know where the reamer came from for those 3 rifles? Or, better, a gunsmith that chambers them?

MKane160 aka BigDogMK

MKane160,

I may be oversimplifying the process, but I believe a 7mmRemMag or 338WinMag (they are both the same) chamber then 375 bore should do the trick. I would give Cliff Labounty a call @ 360.599.2047. Let me know how it goes since I am debatig a 375-338Mag vs a 375Hawk.

Deke.

Mark,
Is this .458WM BAR just a simple rebarrel of any caliber standard belted magnum(7RM, 300WM, .338WM)?
Ghost

Seems to me that the BAR has to have the recoil system worked on to function properly in 458, but it was quite a while ago that I read the article, and I may be mis-remembering. - dan