Hi
I'm try annealling for the first time- using a MAP gas.
If the purpose of your annealing is so its easier to neck down the case do you still quench the case after is annealed or do you let it air cool to keep it soft??

thanks

later
P
BTW- trying to form 223R into 221FB

You need to quench. You do not want the heat to get into the base of the case. Quench does not make the brass hard. Brass is not like steel.

If the base of the brass is under a sufficient depth of water with the spent primer removed you do not have to tip the cases over into the water after heating. roger

quote:

If the base of the brass is under a sufficient depth of water with the spent primer removed you do not have to tip the cases over into the water after heating. roger

Thanks bartsche. I keep focusing on how I do it. I normally use the hold in the fingers method until it starts getting warm then drop. I find it easier to get a more even heat (at least in my mind anyway).In either case quenching will not make the brass harder than letting it air cool.

bartsche --- no other way to say it, you are giving bad advice. If you don't tip the brass over the necks will stay hot too long and while the lower portion of the case "may not" get too hot the neck areas certainly will and you will ruin the case.

Here is a link to a very good article on how to anneal cases and what happens if you don't do it correctly.....gives several methods of which the best requires using a temp-stick.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
bartsche --- no other way to say it, you are giving bad advice. If you don't tip the brass over the necks will stay hot too long and while the lower portion of the case "may not" get too hot the neck areas certainly will and you will ruin the case.

Prior to the computer,Bill, many of us were somewhat working in the dark as there really wasn't a broad exchange of information. I started designing and building wild cats in the late 50s early 60s. It required a lot of annealing. I use to use the tip over method but found if the water was of a resasonable hight it really added little. Maybe you think I'm lucky and maybe I am, but I can never attribute any case problem with annealing I have done and we're talking thousands.

I've run into a LOT of soft and hard cases where they should not be soft and hard. These were always some commercially or militarily produced cases.

Now if you've first hand experience you would like to share(experience) that illustrates a problem with the process I proposed I for one would like to gain that knowledge.

I have been a design and process Electro Mechanical Engineer for a long time,and have lived for more than 7 decades. I am always willing to accept real knowledge if you've any to offer. roger

Bill excellent article. Yep I use the old drop method. I have tried the marker but always got lazy and went to back to judge and drop. I have taken a lot of 280 Rem to 416 with few problems. I quess the question after reading would be what does the temp of the brass do after removing the flame with the brass sitting in high enough water.

Damn it! You guys made me dig out my old metallurgy text book!

"Annealing of most nonferrous metals consists of heating them to recrystalization temperatures or grain growth range and cooling them to room temperature.

The rate of cooling has no effect on most nonferrous metals such as copper and brass, but quenching in cold water is sometimes beneficial."

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Damn it! You guys made me dig out my old metallurgy text book!

"Annealing of most nonferrous metals consists of heating them to recrystalization temperatures or grain growth range and cooling them to room temperature.

The rate of cooling has no effect on most nonferrous metals such as copper and brass, but quenching in cold water is sometimes beneficial."

roger

bartsche ...not to get in a pissin' contest but at 6+ decades and counting you don't have much in age over me and what I learned a long time ago was to learn from the mistakes of others as goodness knows I can make enough on my own.

My experience annealing cases using the tempstick method has been that it provides consistent and repeatable results.

Let me give you an example. I shoot a Lazzeroni 9.53 Hellcat which is their short 30-cal case necked up to 375-caliber. Lazzeroni brass is quite heavy and at $2 each it isn't inexpensive so it's important to make it last as long as possible so I anneal them after they've been fired three times. In an effort to get some idea how long they would last doing this I used 10 cases to see what their operational life would be ----all 10 pieces have been annealed 4 times (fired 12 times) and they still provide consistent neck tension and 3-shot accuracy is still well under MOA. I should add that they weren't wimpy loads as to get the level of performance the round is capable of operating pressure levels are in the 60K psi range.

With respect to DaMan's post if you heat a batch of brass in water and allow the cases to stand upright after heating the necks and not quenching them, the hear will migrate down into the rest of the case and you run the risk of heating an area that shouldn't be heated --- especially if you are doing a bunch of cases at one time ---- why take the risk when simply tipping them over eliminates that risk.

I have learned something else ---- it doesn't pay to try and teach a pig to dance ---- it irritates the pig and wastes your time.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Damn it! You guys made me dig out my old metallurgy text book!

"Annealing of most nonferrous metals consists of heating them to recrystalization temperatures or grain growth range and cooling them to room temperature.
The rate of cooling has no effect on most nonferrous metals such as copper and brass, but quenching in cold water is sometimes beneficial."

Something no one has yet been able to 'splain to me is.......why, when you quench brass (nonferrous) it softens. But when you quench lead alloys (also nonferrous) as in drop them out of the mold into a pail of water, they HARDEN. What gives?

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
bartsche ...not to get in a pissin' contest I have learned something else ---- it doesn't pay to try and teach a pig to dance ---- it irritates the pig and wastes your time.

By golly you're right. I certainly don't want to irritate you. roger

Max503 - You're going to have to ask a metallurgist that question but, it is perplexing. I only know that heating and quenching brass does the exact opposite of what it does to steel.

I'm also with the group that says you better quench the case completely once you heated the neck/shoulder area to the desired temperature to prevent any possibility of softening the case head. That would be disasterous with any normal load.

Like I have said I always held turn the neck in the flame and drop when it gets warm to my fingers.

Well I just ran a very un-scientific test. I took a 7STW case and held it first by the base in water with only the shoulder showing and heated the neck and shoulder up past the point of changing color. I took the heat away and let it cool until I could touch the neck. I never felt any heat at the base.

Second try the same thing with my finger 1" below the surface. Still no heat at anytime.

Last I all but melted the neck and still never felt heat 1" below water.

If I used that method I would probably quench because I'm a belt and suspender kind of guy. But, I really have trouble seeing a problem with just leaving it sit.

Does anyone know of any brass or cartridge manufacturer who uses water to quench or cool down the annealed brass? I don't

Heres a link to an article written by Ken Howell who I hope everyone would agree knows what he's talking about...





http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

quote:

Heres a link to an article written by Ken Howell who I hope everyone would agree knows what he's talking about

Bill, I for one and I don't see anyone disagreeing with your position that too much heat is a NO NO. If you get heat to anything much below the shoulder you risk ruining the case. If you get too much heat on the shoulder you will also ruin it. After reading Ken's article I for one will get the marker back out and stop judging by eye.

The only issue I see disagreement on was rather tipping over being needed or not to stop heat from reaching the rest of the case. I found in my test that I "felt" no heat at 1" below the water. But that was only one case. I have no clue if the water would get too hot with multiple cases.

I thought we all agreed that the quench did nothing except remove the heat. If the rest of the case had no heat increase from letting the neck air cool I don't see any harm. Yes tipping over is the safe side.

If I reading wrong please set me straight.

Thanks for the link I'll download it for the future.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
Heres a link to an article written by Ken Howell who I hope everyone would agree knows what he's talking about...





http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

Bill, even here you are skirting tip over verses not with a lot of verbage. You seem to be well read but don't justify your statement of me giving bad advise but not tipping the cases into the water.

You seem to want to wright change notices to the physical laws of thermodynamics and heat transfere. I doubt that your experiece in this area amounts to a hill of beans.

When asked to enlighten us with experience relateing to the adversity of the process I propounded you did a not too associated song and dance about your Lazoroni. I guess that's some kind of pasta?

If there are those that want to fallow a sophisticated annealing process that you perscribe than bless one and all. There will be no skin off my back for those who you've misslead.

You know what is really sad? You probably believe what you're saying.

In as much as there really are only a small number of us really doing serious annealing this will be my last contribution to this thread. bad scene roger