Hey all, I've got a fantastic .35 whelen Ackley Improved, on a 1917. I have another 1917 that I need to decide a cartridge on and was thinking the .375 whelen AI. Any of you have one? How do you like it?

I already have a 1917 in .458 in the process of finishing, so don't need another one that big. And all chalk full of medium bores.

Red

Yep, I have one but I know nothing of its performance, I had a freind take it back to Alaska where I had it built so he could return it to the smith for some slight modifications and damned if my friend didn't throw the bolt out with the trash when he pitched the box and wrapping/packing material.

Bastard!!! Is it a bolt that you can replace? Probably some way of getting a replacement for it. That really sucks dude.

Red

I think I remember seeing an ad for P17 (or possible P14) bolts at SARCO in a recent Shotgun News. I�m interested in the 375 AI also. I have a Remington made P17 I want to make something on. Appreciate any info from someone who has experience.

I have a 35 Whelan Imp. Built on a Remington Built P17 that I had McGowans Build. I cannot believe the performance I get from it. I had also thought about having a .375 Whelan Improved built but have not come upon another P17 Action Yet. Keep us posted on your porgress.

I built one back in the '80's. Mine was built on a Mauser action.

I didn't have the improved version, but I can't imagine that you could get much more velocity over the standard version. I was getting 2200 fps out of it with the Hornady 270 grainer. Too much bullet weight for the case capacity. If I had it to do over again I would stick with the .338 or .35 calibers.

[ 08-29-2003, 21:00: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ]

Check out the 375 Hawk. I talked to Bob Fab about his gun (the first) before building mine. Bob's gun started out as a 375 Whelen , then bored to Improved, then reamed again with the 9.3x62 and called the 375 Hawk (Scovill). It is a great gun pushing a 250 gr bullet at 2700 fps (338 win mag) with only 59 grains of powder. Can't think of using another gun for hunting!

Snapper

I have a P14 chambered for the 375 Weatherby, which ballistically should be about the same as the 375 Ackley Magnum (probably a little faster because of the freebore). Now, if you're talking about the 375 Whelen Ackley Improved, that is a horse of a differant color. The 375 Wby will get 300 gr bullets to 2800 fps with no problem. I've used data from the Wolfe wildcats book that gave 2900 fps with the 300 grainers, but it made me nervous. There were no pressure signs that I could see, but still. FWIW - Dan

Whoah, I guess I had a brain fart there. Of course you're interested in the 375 whelen AI. I suggest you check out the 380 Howell. - Dan

I�m familiar with the 375 Whelen but unfamiliar with the term �AI�. Are we talking about the first cartridge Whelen designed about 1920?

Dude, AI = ACKLEY IMPROVED

Thank-you, Ackley is a little too modern for me and it did not register. The post caught my eye because I have been looking for an original 375 Whelen for some time.
Thanks,

I recently traded for a 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. For those who are not familiar with it, it is an Improved .375 Whelen Short. I start with .35 Whelen cases, expand the neck to 0.375"ID, and set back the shoulder. Then I shorten the case neck by 6mm (about 1/4"). Then I fireform the case to expand the shoulder. That is pretty close to what you are talking about here.

I have heard that the Whelen's over .35 caliber had headspacing problems. After looking at the shoulder width after the shoulder on this one was set back, I could see how that it true. With the Improved version, this is not a problem.

Having a lot of fun with it, but have not developed a lot of loads yet. My gun requires the use of a long 270gr RN bullet in order for the M-S to feed smoothly. Also, the cartridge pressure is held down to 45,000psi. You would not have these problems.

You should no have a problem with headspacing the 375 AI unless you dies are not made correct. That was the problem with the early 400 Whelen where the shoulder was bumped back from the improved shoulder size of .462 down to the 06 shoulder size of .442 allowing the case to side forward upon impact from the firing pin. The bad rap stuck and the rest is history as they say.

9point3, See my post under gunsmithing on P17 bolts.

I have read (but cannot vouch for its accuracy) that the original .400 Whelen's were made as Improved to get enough shoulder to headspace on. When other (less talented) gunsmiths started making them, they did not make them Improved. The same 30-06 body taper was used. That is why they had headspace problems.

I don't know if the .375 Whelen would have that problem, but the straight (Improved) sides of the 9.5x57 M-S have absolutely NO headspacing problems under any condition that I can see. If I were to make a .375 Whelen, I would definitely make it with the Improved taper. I guess I am a suspenders and belt kind of guy.

�I have read (but cannot vouch for its accuracy) that the original .400 Whelen's were made as Improved to get enough shoulder to headspace on.�

I�m not sure something can be original and improved at the same time. I can tell you the original .400 Whelen chambering had a shoulder of .458�. This measurement was taken from original rifles and the case forming dies that had belonged to Townsend Whelen.

akguy: Like I said, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of what I repeated, but the following directly contradicts your statement. See:

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

This is what is about halfway down the page. In any case, the 9.5x57 M-S has the larger shoulder.

400 WHELEN:
The first notice I find of the .400 Whelen is in "Arms And The Man" on June15, 1922 where Whelen tells about his work on this cartridge. The .400 Whelen is the 30-06 cylindrical case necked down to take the .405 Winchester 300gr. .411" diameter round nose bullet. Four test rifles were being made up, two on the 1903 Springfield and two on the Mauser action. Whelen estimates the velocity of the 300-gr. bullets at 2350-2600 fps. These test rifles, as well as the loading tools, were made by James V. Howe then of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The barrels for these were made and installed by A.O. Niedner in Dowagiac, Michigan. By November 15th, 1922 Whelen was offering a circular by mail with information on the 400. Anyone know where one of these circulars is to be found?

I can not think of another cartridge with as bad a reputation as the .400 Whelen. From Cartridges of the World 6th Edition "The .400 Whelen was not a very successful development because when the 30-06 case neck is expanded to this size it leaves only a very slight shoulder and this gives rise to serious headspace problems." I have also read several reports of the firing pin driving the case forward over the shoulder.

I am not going to list all the negative things I have read about the .400 or there would be room for little else. As I began to collect information there were two distinct schools of thought on the .400; One was by people who used the .400 and thought it was a fine cartridge; The other was by those who did not, telling you how bad it was. The first praise I read for the .400 was by, (and it should be no surprise to the readers), Elmer Keith. A quote from Big Game Rifles by Elmer Keith, Samworth 1935. "I have used this rifle over a period of eleven years and have a lot of respect for it." "Much criticism has been passed on this rifle and cartridge, some claiming that the front shoulder of the ease was sufficient to hold its headspace against the blow of the firing pin. Such is not the case, and that forward shoulder is ample in correctly chambered rifles and used with correctly necked cases."

The biggest challenge I faced in learning about the .400 was to find and record chamber dimensions of the older original rifles. Although it was not a popular cartridge there have been several .400's made over the last 78 years. Most of the problems with this cartridge I have been able to trace to one factor. The. 30-06, .25 Whelen (.25-06), .35 Whelen and .38 Whelen all have a shoulder diameter of .441. "The ORIGINAL .400 Whelen shoulder is .458". When and how this information got lost to modern riflemen and writers I have no idea. Many 400's that were made in later years for which I have measurements have the .441" shoulder; this is also true of many resizing dies.

I have wanted a .400 Whelen rifle for some time and my search for an early. 400 Whelen has not been easy. The rifles I found either had been modified or the price was well out of my reach. Which brings up a good point. If these things are no good why are they so expensive? Sorry. Back to the story.
By the time I had resigned myself to the fact that I might never find what I was looking for, a chain of events began that you only dream about as a collector. Not only was I able to acquire what I believe to be the second .400 Whelen Made by Griffin & Howe in their first year (1923), it showed up unfired with a box of G&H cartridges. These early G&H�s had blued bolts and there was not so much as a brass rub mark on the bolt face. The icing on the cake was when friends Mark Benenson and Russell Gilmore of The Rifled Arms Historical Association sent me Townsend Whelen�s case-forming and loading tools for his .400 to use and take measurements from. These early loading dies are sometimes mistakenly referred to as "Pound Dies." Nothing could be further from the truth. They are not meant to be hit with anything, but instead are to be used in an arbor press. The way Whelen made the cases for the .400 was to neck down cylindrical brass, and I was going to do it the same way. Today there are several sources of cylindrical brass.

With gun and loading tools at hand, but impatient while waiting for brass, I made a die for my lathe to hold annealed .35 Whelen brass. Using a tool that looked like a boring bar with a rounded side I ironed some cases out straight. Using feeler gauges with Whelen�s die I found that when the case was .006" from bottoming out I could not force the bolt home on an empty case. At .005" I could get the bolt closed with resistance. No way is a firing pin going to drive this case forward.
I then trimmed the cases to a length of 2.470". When you are using cylindrical brass they are full size out of the die and fire forming is not needed. I dumped in some IMR-3031 topped with a 300gr. DKT round nose bullet. I also loaded a few with the last of my supply of Barnes originals (the ones they no longer make), that shot so well in my .400 Niedner. As luck would have it the Barnes Originals worked much better than the DKT�s but in all fairness to DKT I have yet to try their spitzer bullets. A local store did have some of the Barnes X-Bullets .411" diameter in 300gr. so I gave them a try only to shoot a 5' group at 50 yards with them. If I had spent some time doing research on the X-bullets I would have known that they work best when seated .050" off the lands. New loads and hack to the range with the X�s; Results are close to MOA.

The loaner dies of Colonel Whelen�s were perfect for the rifle and everything worked great. Dreading the day that I would have to return the dies. I put out the word that I was looking for a set of .400 Whelen dies. A set was located and when I received them I resized a case only to find the dies had reduced the shoulder diameter back to .437". After sending a Cerrosafe cast of the Whelen�s dies and two fired cases to RCBS I received a set of dies made perfectly for this rifle. If you have a .400 ANYTHING I suggest that a chamber cast is in order and that .30-06 brass with the .441"shoulder never be used to fire form brass. In one case a person I was corresponding with was having all the problems that I have ever read about with his .400. It turned out he has the original .458" shoulder chambered rifle but his set of dies was for the 06 shoulder.

(Update 10-2000; I just got off the phone with the owner of an early G&H .400 Whelen who is having this exact problem. A quick check of a resized case showed the dies put it back to 06 size.)
How did all this get so mixed up over the passing of time? Did no one ever take the time to measure an early .400 Whelen? One bit of information I have looked for in the early articles written by Whelen was his telling about the larger .458" diameter shoulder. So far I have not found it. Whelen did suggest that only G&H, Hoffman, or Niedner make the .400 Whelen so maybe this was their trade secret. I have cataloged pre-1940 sporters in caliber .400 Whelen made by Griffin & Howe, Fred Adolph, Niedner, Hoffman Arms Co. and Krieghoff of Suhl, Germany. Because of all the bad press many of these rifles have been rebarreled or modified in some way. An early engraved G&H I know of was re-chambered to a belted magnum case so it would have the belt to headspace on.

With the proper chamber and loading dies to match, my rifle has performed flawlessly and is a tribute to Townsend Whelen, James V. Howe and the gunmakers of Griffin & Howe.

akguy: In rereading both posts I see the dimensions are the same. The only difference is what they are called. I call opening up the shoulder to nearly a straight case as "Improved". I guess we both agree that the shoulder of the .400 Whelen was wider than all the other Whelen's. Whether or not that is called "Improved" is something else.

Well, I�m relieved that I did not contradict myself.

I will put my 2 cents worth into this conversaton. I have a 375/06 ack.Imp. It is a 700 Remington,Pac-nor match barrel. I ended up using 748 powder and 300gr Hor Spirepoint Interlocks at 2450 fps. My most accurate load was BLC-2 but I could not get the velocity over 2200 fps. I really like the caliber and it hits just under a 375 H.H. I used 35 Whelan brass run thru my 375 die and fire formed to the chamber. Ter

I just built myself a 375-06 AI. It is a wonderful rifle. I built it on a Rem 700 ADL with a 20" PAC-NOR SS #3 barrel. I fluted it with 5 3/8" flutes to knock down the weight a little more. The barrel is a 12" twist. I got 2525 fps using the 270 Barnes XLC. I shot a bear with it on the 17th of August. There was a 3/8" hole in the chest and a 1" or so hole behind the left shoulder. The meat was lead free and not bloodshot. I love this round and would suggest it to any reloader. The brass is a little work. I don't like blowing out cases in my good rifles, so I have a VZ-24 that I form all my wildcats in. It is welded to a frame like a cannon, and I make barrel stubs out of cut-offs for forming. Back to the rifle. If I remember correctly, The 235 Speers go 2700+. I would surely do it in the improved version. It isn't so much about added case volume, but more about that nice shoulder to headspace from. My 270 XLC load is 59 gr. surplus 4895. I tryed 60 and got a little brass flow. That was the 2525fps. I'm crushing the powder a little, but not too much. I am going to try the 260 Nos Accubond when I can get them in. The gun kicks, I won't hide that fact. I think for general hunting, this is a ideal round. I feel it is unethical to shoot over 400 yds,(and dosen't incorperate your stalking skills). This round can shoot 400 if you choose. I used the FL dies from RCBS. The Barnes Book shows the 375 Scovill. It is just a 375-06. Their data with the 375 cal 270 gr. XLC is 2503 at max with 58 gr. 4895. That was with a 25" barrel. So improving it and shortening the barrel 5" gives about the same preformance. If you want any more info, I will be happy to give it.