Hi All,

I was looking at my COTW and Wildcat Cartridges Combo Edition yesterday, and couldn't find what I was searching for. I knew where to go next (AR) for help.

May I ask of your collective wisdom: Has anyone necked down the 450/400 NE (or 450 NE) to 358? If so, what is the name of this cartridge?

Can anyone who has much greater knowledge than I, give me an idea of what kind of velocities such a cartridge might produce with 250, 280, and 310 gr. bullets from a say, 22,23, or 24 inch barrel?

I am looking for a fast 35 cal. on a rimmed cartridge for a Ruger No.1. If it does not exist, perhaps I'll have to have someone make me a wildcat. I already own No.1s in 35 Whelen and 9.3x74R, but was looking for more velocity, and in a rimmed cartridge.

Thank you gurus in advance for your expertise.


Surefire7

Sounds very much like the 360No.2
It can be made from 450/400 brass (which is based on a thick rimmed 450 case) but uses a .366" bullet rather than the .358" bullet you are thinking of using. Has huge case volume for a medium bore.

Huvius,

Thanks for the info! I looked up the info in COTW and I think you are very close to what I was thinking of.

COTW states a 320 gr. bullet at 2200 fps for the 360 No. 2. That's not the velocity I was looking/hoping for. I suppose with older powders of the day, and using this cartridge in double rifles, perhaps the velocity/pressure was kept low.

If one were to use Hornady 450/400 NE 3" brass necked down and a 358 cal. bullet, in a strong modern Ruger No. 1, what velocities do any of you wildcatters think I could hope for? I am thinking of bullet weight in the 250-310 range.

Thanks!

I think it would an expensive way to duplicate 358 STA or an 358 Ultra mag, depending on the geometry. The 450 Nitro is a beast of a cartridge to start out with.

Hi Canadian,

Thanks for the reply!

I was trying to get a fast 35 with a Rimmed cartridge.

Sounds like a plan. Forming brass will likely need an intermediary size before the final step down. Another suggestion would be to neck down a flanged 375 and AI it, or leave it be as is. Ether way it would only need to be neck sized.

Hi Canadian,

Another good suggestion. Thanks!

I have read that 375 Flanged cartridges/brass are hard to find and also expensive. I guess that is why I was thinking of the Hornady 450/400 3" brass. Also, I assume that the 450/400 has a bigger base diameter and larger case capacity than the 375, but I may be wrong about that.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Hi Canadian,

Another good suggestion. Thanks!

I have read that 375 Flanged cartridges/brass are hard to find and also expensive. I guess that is why I was thinking of the Hornady 450/400 3" brass. Also, I assume that the 450/400 has a bigger base diameter and larger case capacity than the 375, but I may be wrong about that.

Yes, the 400 is bigger in both diameter and case capacity.
Maybe a 9.3X74 necked and "improved" or something based on the 45/70-120 brass would do the trick.
The 9.3X74 is pretty close to the 375 Flanged Magnum but much easier and cost effective.
Would ultimately be much like an improved 400/350 Rigby.

Hi Huvius,

Again, thanks for even more suggestions!

Well, all of this has made me look closer at my COTW and I see this information on base size and cartridge length:

450/400 -.545 (base) and 3.00 (length)

375 flng.-.515. and 2.94

9.3x74R -.465. and 2.93

45/70 -.500. and 2.11

45/90. -.501. and 2.40

45/75cen.-.559. and 1.89

So, considering both base and length measurements, I would assume that the 450/400 brass would offer the most case capacity. I cannot find info anywhere as to actual case capacities of these cartridges. Does anyone know where one can find this?

Again, I am trying to make a FAST 35 on a RIMMED case. Perhaps the 375 flanged, the 9.3x74R, and any of the 45/70-120 s would make a great 35, but I am looking for the biggest case to produce the fastest 35.

Both of you guys have given me some great advice, but I don't know if you are giving me other options, or if you think there is a problem with the 450/400 case. Do you see any problems with using the 450/400?

I am also looking for help from all of the gurus out there who either know, or have access to computer programs, that might be able to tell me what kind of velocities I can expect from the 450/400 case necked down to .358, a 280 gr. bullet and a 24" barrel. If the best I can expect is a new cartridge with 35 Whelen/9.3x74R velocity, then obviously, this would be a foolish/expensive wildcat to build. But if it can produce 358 Norma type velocity from a rimmed cartridge, then I'm very interested.

Thanks again guys for all of your input!

Hi All,

I think I need to add some thoughts to my previous posts. I think most all of you on this forum have much more knowledge than I do on reloading and also wildcats. Hence, I am seeking your expertise.

From my limited understanding: A single shot does not have the extraction power of a bolt action. A rimmed cartridge is easier to extract than a rimless cartridge. The larger the case capacity, the less pressure produced and therefore the easier the extraction of spent brass.

If I were to make a fast 35 (35 Normaish) in a single shot rifle, the bigger the case (less pressure) the easier the extraction, especially from a "magnum" type cartridge. The rimmed brass would also be a plus.

Hence, I am thinking of the 450/400 case.

Would an "improved" 9.3x74R, as mentioned by you guys, have the velocity I am looking for, with acceptable extraction on a Ruger No. 1?

Thanks for your patience.

From what I have read, the 35 Norma Mag. throws a 250gr bullet at 2750fps.
The 350No.2 Rigby (which can be made with shortened 9.3X74R brass)pushes a 225gr bullet at 2600fps.
I would think that even a non-improved .358X74R could match the Norma Magnum in something like a Ruger No.1.
The 360No.2 and the 450/400 3" do produce lower pressures due to their large capacity, but they burn a lot of slow powder to get the velocity.
I imagine that in their day, the use of strand cordite in a number of different cartridges led to the use of such voluminous cases to lower pressures.
Today though, reloaders aren't bound to one propellant or burn rate so the huge cases are rather passe'.
Your rimmed cartridge will have better extraction than many of the higher pressure rimless cases that No.1s are chambered in.
I think you would be just fine, and since you are in Colorado too, I just may get to see the finished product!

In the #1 375 that I had reamed to 375 Weatherby I never had any extraction troubles and I had 270 gr bullets going over 2900 fps. I've never heard anyone complain that the 358 STA wouldn't extract from the #1 . My point is I don't think the improved case causes extraction problems in the #1 as long as some reasonable guidelines are followed. IMO the 450 3 1/4" would be the cats meow necked down. . Use a 25° shoulder and a caliber long neck. Plenty of leade/ throat/ free bore so the long 320 gr bullets can seat out where they need to be.

Does anyone have the newest Hornady manual. I believe it has data for the 450/400 .
Or search the Reloading forum or Double Rifle forum. You could get the case capacity for both the 450 3 1/4" or the 450/400 3"

Checking the loading data for the 9.3×74 it shows that 70 gr of powder is compressed. The case can be blown out and an improved shoulder, shorter neck will gain you powder capacity. But if you start with the 450/400 you will gain a lot of capacity.

Cold Trigger Finger,

Thanks for the great information and suggestions. I will try to look up the info on the forum. If I can't find it, I may come back and ask you again where to find it.

The improved 9.3 x74R has me intrigued. I want to look into it further. If I used the 9.3 caliber instead of 358, it seems it would be the easiest conversion of them all. I could use the barrel on my 9.3x74R and only have to have the chamber reamed out to the improved dimensions. Is that correct? Also, could the new cases be made by just fire forming the regular 9.3x74R ammo in the new chamber?

However, as you said, starting with the 450/400 just gets you there with more power. I could see a 450/350 Express come out of this.

Huvius,

You are absolutely correct about the Norma ballistics of a 250 gr. at 2750. That made me sit up and realize that I am looking for even more! I want that velocity, but with a 280 gr. SAF bullet. So, I guess I am hoping for more than the Norma performance.

My question remains (or more correctly, has changed to...), with the 450/400 3" case, can I get a .358 caliber 280 gr. bullet going 2750-2800 fps? If the shoulder was moved forward to make a caliber length neck, I would gain some powder capacity, yes? Or perhaps that would be too much. I really want to stick to the 2750-2800 fps velocity range.

Anyway, thanks again guys for your help.

To put things into perspective:

A .358 Norma Mag holds 84.1gr of water and will push a 280gr swift about 2600ft/sec
A .358 STA holds 97.8 gr water and will push a 280gr swift at 2700ft/sec.
The .358 Ultra mag holds 107.8gr water and will blast a 280gr swift north of 2850ft/sec

Now, to compare with what you are trying to accomplish as a wildcat. The 9.3x72R improved will hold around 82-84gr of water, duplicating the Norma load. Brass is the cheapest at around 32.00 per 20. A 358-375 Flanged will hold 92gr of water, more if you improve the cartridge. Again, this should duplicate the performance of the 358 STA. Brass is readily available from Captech at about 58.00 per 20, essentially the same price at 450 nitro brass.

Now here is where it gets interesting. A necked down 450 NE will lose some of its case capacity as it gets necked down. Starting at 119gr of water, it will likely lose 8 or 9 gr. of that original capacity. Performance wise, it will best the 358 ultra mag by a tad bit. You could also go way out there and neck down a 375 R verrney Carron (brass and dies available at Kebco). This would essentially duplicate a 450-358NE performance with out the need for an intermediary die.

If that still isn't enough performance you could go bigger. By necking down a 500/416 NE (around 124gr? of water) it should allow you to push a 280 grain pill out to the magical 3000ft/sec mark Brass is available at Captech at about 60.00 per 20.

Hi Canadian,

Wow! My head is spinning. Talk about options! Really, thanks for all of the info. You have given me some hard ballistic facts that I have been searching for.

Your 358/375 flanged is interesting as well. I wish I knew more about wildcatting, as I wouldn't have to ask all of these questions. But, I guess I'm lucky to have this forum and all of you guys for help.

You said the 9.3x74R Improved should hold 82-84 grains and produce 2600 fps for the 280 gr. SAF. Even though I was looking at 2700-2800 fps, I think the 2600 is pretty impressive still for a 280 gr. bullet. Considering the regular 9.3x74R pushes the 286 gr. at 2360, that's quite a bit of improvement. And, as I said before, if I stuck with the 9.3 caliber, it would surely be the easiest conversion; just reaming out the old chamber to the Improved chamber. I wouldn't even need to rebarrel if I stuck with the 9.3 caliber and used a 286 gr. bullet. What do you think?

Does Swift make a 286 in 9.3? I know they make a 300 gr. Hmmmm, the 300 gr. may be interesting as well...

Does this 9.3x74R Improved already exist? Has someone already done it before? If so, is it simply called the 9.3x74R Improved?

I've read, from Boddington, that the Ruger No. 1 tops out, chamber wise, at the 458 caliber, and that to go to the 500 NE based cartridges, a lot of work (read expensive), must be done. I like your idea of the 500/416, but it would probably produce more velocity than I am looking for, as well as being more expensive to make.

Man, is this a lot to think about or what! Lots of great ideas/options. I'm not sure which way to go. And still, there is the 450/350. Maybe I should make them all....

If you haven't guessed already, I am looking for a powerful medium bore rimmed cartridge that is somewhat fast.

I am trying to build a battery of Rimmed single shots in Ruger No.1s. I have many No.1s, some rimmed and some rimless. The rimmed battery I put together was a small bore 303 British in a 1-A; a medium bore 9.3x74R in a 1-S, a large medium bore in 450/400 3" in a 1-H, and a large bore in 450NE in a 1-H also. I really like this battery as a "Classic" battery of older cartridges.

However, I would like to also put together a battery of faster small and medium bore Rimmed rifles. I am thinking of the 30R Blaser for the small bore, and you guys are helping me with all of these ideas we've discussed for the medium bore.

As I think about my favorite medium bores (338WM, 35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and 375H&H or Ruger), I quickly glanced again at the 338WM. In Zambia this year, my wife and I took 6 Plainsgame animals with the 338WM. It's a deadly round. I've used it quite a bit in Africa.

I got to thinking about what The Canadian said about the 9.3x74R Improved and pondered this question: How fast would that case push a 338 caliber bullet, both the 250NP that I love, and the 275SAF, which I also love, and is very close to the 280 gr. that I have been thinking about in the other bores (358 and 9.3).

See what you guys have done? I started out by simply wanting to neck down the 450/400 to 35 caliber. Look where this had led.

Surefire ; I used to shoot the 275 gr KBC in my 338 Win Mag. Burning around 70 gr of 4831. My velocity from a 24" barreled Ruger M77 mk2 stainless was 2660 fps. . I think the #1 can take similar pressure to the bolt action so if you can put 80 gr of powder in an improved 74 case then you are looking at 2700 fps plus. Given a 24" barrel. If you stick with the 9.3 you will be able to match or probably beat the 9.3x64 Brenneke. I'm burning 74 gr of 4350 for 2650 fps from mine with a 21" barrel and the 285 gr bullet.
I believe that Elmer Kieth "Improved " the 9.3×74 R. I don't know what load he was using or what velocity he got. .

The 338 is really a great diameter because of all the different bullets available. .
I reccomend you put some time in on Ammo Guide. You can do a lot of case design and figure out your case volume. Plus, my guess is that there is already a few " Improved " 9.3×74 R designs. Along with neck up and downs. Also, get familiar with Quick load.
You may also contact PTG, Manson and Clymer to see if they already have drawings on file.

A necked up 30r blaser would be an option to.

11.7 g (181 gr) Blaser CDP
940 m/s (3,100 ft/s)
4,724 j

(max pressure 58700psi)

Cold Trigger Finger,

You said you were getting 2650 fps with the 9.3 and a 285 gr. bullet from a 21" barrel. Was that from a regular 9.3x74, an improved 9.3x74, or from a 9.3 x 64?

9.3×64 Brenneke.

Cold Trigger Finger,

You were right! Elmer Keith did improve the 9.3x74.

Rereading my "Wildcat Cartridges", Bob Hagel wrote an article on just that cartridge, named the 338-74 Keith. Using powders of his time, Hagel tried 5 or 6 powders on five different bullet weights: 200, 210, 225, 250, and 275. His best velocities he got without compressed loads were: 200 @ 3,044; 210 @ 2,942; 225 @ 2,878; 250 @ 2,738; and 275 @ 2607.

These are great velocities, and just what I am looking for in a 338 caliber. Perhaps with different powders today, those velocities might even be higher.

Keith improved the 9.3x74R. The original has a shoulder diameter of .414 and Keith improved it to .437. The 338-74 Keith holds 77.7 grains of water.

Reamers are already available. I think this is the way to go for my rimmed fast 338.

I am still pondering the 450/350 Express for a 358 caliber. I can't seem to find any wildcats similar to this. The 360 No.2, as mentioned earlier, is close but in 9.3. I suspect finding 360 No. 2 brass would be more difficult/expensive than using current Hornady 450/400 3" brass.

More research needed...

Surefire:

I don't know whether anyone has done this previously, but, since the .404 Jeffery was based on the .450-3¼" NE case shortened, necked down, and de-rimmed, you could select any .350 bore wildcat based on the .404 Jeffery or RUM cases, and make a rimmed version using the Hornady .450/.400 brass, the appropriate shellholder, and the sizing die for the selected wildcat (in the same manner that the .356 Win. can be resized with .358 Win. dies). Doing this, you wouldn't have to design new dies, or develop starting loads from scratch.

If you want velocity, the .358 UMT is claimed to deliver 3225 fps with a 225 gr. Nosler (http://www.barnesbullets.com/partner-page/product-news/publication-mentions/shooting-illustrated/). Bartsche's .358X.404 IMP would be similar. For less oomph, you could make a rimmed version of the .35 Sambar (.358 WSM). Or you could do something in between like a rimmed .350 Dakota.

Cheers, Al

Great minds think alike. Oh man, a machini$t with a $smartphone and long cycle times, is there anything more dangerou$...

So, I'm into Handi Rifles for their weirdness value. The biggest (current) "medium" bore they make before jumping to 45-70, is the .358 (three of them, 35Whelen, 35Rem, and .357Mag). These are all pretty much earmarked for the Louisiana and Mississippi primitive season market and then other states with pistol regs.

I like to take the same approach as the old Reese's peanut cups commercials, forcing a rimmed case into an existing cartridge for reamers and dies and such. Old European and Cowboy cases are the logical donors.

From pouring over:
Captech/Jamison
Starline
Sellier and Bellot
PRVI

RWS is almost unobtainium here in the states.

Then mix and match with 4-D Reamers and Elk Ridge Reamers.

Here's what's popped in my head. Nothing should be assumed safe.

Easiest, but developmentally dead - 356Win and 357Max

7x65R Donor - Rimmed 35Whelen Improved and any of the offshoots. Brown has a large case neck that needs custom, custom dies. The others could probably use AI with the die raised or base ground a bit.

8x50R Lebel Donor - 358CRG (RCM)

44-90 (Captech) Donor - 358Norma
The little brother
43 Spanish / 44-77 - 350Rem Mag

50-110Win (Starline) Donor - 4-D's 358 Yukon, a bit iffy on neck length, depends on case OAL growing as neck size decreases. Not quite as important if you don't care about cast boolits.
Alternatively any of the WSM or RSAUM family. Which also ties back to the 35-348 Win.

6.5,7,8x57R - 4-D's 350 Mauser Wallop.

Okay, I lied...Natchez had these on closeout a few years back but were gone too fast.
RWS 6.5x68R - 35 Newton or 4-D's 350 African Express

Good luck and God help you if you start using google translate and Frankonia.de. HAHAHA.

Can you imagine what velocity this would get if you used 110 grain or 125 grain revolver bullets at max? 4300 fps? 4200 fps? Shouldn't take much tracking even if you shot a prairie dog a little too far back!