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| one of us |
On the big bore section a guy named Rodger Rothchild basically has taken the cartridge design for a belted .600 NE from another guy named Robgunbuilder and called it a Rothchild ultra Nitro. All he did was modify a few dimensions that don't make any difference as far as I can tell at all. The guy didn't even acknowledge the originators work.Apparantly Robgunbuilder has a fully functioning gun and cartridge, while the Rothchild Ultra Nitro is still just a design. I think this sucks! Is this how wildcats are born by stealing other guys ideas? I'm confused but not stupid. I've contacted Robgunbuilderby E-mail and he doesn't seem to care too much, but it really bothers me. Am I wrong? | ||
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| one of us |
470, Actually I have been corresponding with Roger for about a year or more and he mentioned his 600 early on. He sent me a few cases for my 500 A-Square project as well as load data. I feel personally that what Roger designed is Not a Overkill in another guise. That said,there is not much recently developed that someone else earlier had not already come up with. Insignificant differences and such but even the 7x57 goes by more than one name,same with the 300 whisper...aka 300x221,my biggest baddest gun the 500A-Square has been done to death.....many,many other examples around. No one has been offended yet and I expect Roger to be a upstanding example and let this pass, as he has proven to me already by being so generous in the past. Without his help I would have been back six months or more instead of having a gun I can shoot now. 45nut | |||
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| one of us |
Axel/470Nitro person, I don't know the whole story here, but if the original designer chose to blab about it in an open forum on the internet without a patent, tough luck. He gave it away with his own actions. [ 06-15-2003, 08:53: Message edited by: Talking Head ] | |||
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one of us |
Maybe you should fire off a letter to Remington, They've done this more than anyone else I know of. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
So who do we give credit to the .25-06 Remington to? If anything, Remington standardized several wildcats, and made factory ammo available for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Remington fan really, but I do appreciate being able to buy a box of .22-250 at almost any gunstore. | |||
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one of us |
I dont believe that you can patent a cartridge but could copyright the name. If someone changes the name, no copyright infiringment...... EDIT: Forgot to answer the question. IMHO, i would go to the source that has the most to offer not just the namesake. In the case you mention, Robgunbiulder is the originator of this round, has done the development and has all the right info. He would be who i looked to for this combo of gun/cartridge. There are plenty of wildcats out there that have been developed by a particular individual that believes that they should have ALL RIGHTS to that round, i disagree. Others have taken a wildcat round and improved them, thats what wildcatting is all about, continued improvment. Do i think that it is right that someone tries to steal the thunder of anothers hard work, HELL NO! but that is life..... [ 06-15-2003, 20:45: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ] | |||
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| One of Us |
In order to get a patent, your invention must be novel, useful, non-obvious to a person skilled in the art, and include and inventive step. All these criteria have specific legal meanings. Novel means that nobody else has disclosed the same thing publicly, and non-obvious means that that nobody elese has disclosed essentially the same thing publicly. There was an interesting case in which BASF wanted to patent a process for raising a sunken ship by filling it with styrofoam. This had never been done before, but a comic book showing Donald Duck doing essentially the same thing (in his case with ping pong balls) was held to be an enabling disclosure. The patent was denied. http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/priorart/ http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/ H. C. | |||
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| one of us |
Ok, i stand corrected (or the water is muddier) but nonetheless i should have kept out of the "600 Overkill" thing since i lacked enuff info on the subject. Anywho..... | |||
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| one of us |
If you do a search on the big bore siteon the .600 Overkill it was totally clear that the .600 Overkill was invented before this Rothchild guy ever had a clue.He just stole the idea thats that. In my opinion as a lawyer it takes pretty big chahones to take another guys idea and then present it on the same forum as your own without even recognizing the guy who developed it and made it public.In my buisness we make a fortune sueing guys like this! I'm checking the patent laws right now and while it seems cartridges are unpatendable, perhaps the whole working concept is. Just because I live in Michigan, don't confuse me with AXEL. Not even close. That's actually an insult. | |||
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| one of us |
[ 06-16-2003, 08:08: Message edited by: Talking Head ] | |||
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| one of us |
I understand that SMC^2 has a patent on their hemispherical shoulder design for rifle cartridges. Beyond that, it's a cruel world... | |||
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| one of us |
Isn't it that you standarize your design with the CIP or the other (i forgot the name) instead of the patent...? Right or wrong? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey Axel/470Nitro/lawyer, guess they never taught you spelling, punctuation, or grammar in law school, huh? Maybe you don't need that to pass the bar exam? ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
The Europeans have the CIP, the Americans have SAAMI, but you need to be a member (currently all are companies) in order to "standardize" a cartridge design. The American basic patent for brass cased cartridges was issued back in 1856? to Smith & Wesson while they worked for the Volcanic pistol company (that became Winchester) for the 22 short rimfire, then they bought a patent from an employee at Colt (Rollin White) for a bored through cylinder - and kept Colt and everyone else from selling cartridge revolvers til 1873. Cartridge rifles (Spencers and a few others) used priming methods other than rimfire and got around the self-contained rim-fire cartridge patent and/or paid royalties to S&W. All of these patents are long expired and just changing the shape of the cartridge isn't reason enough to get a new patent - so you can't patent any cartridges now. | |||
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quote:Such as a certain Townsend Whelen . But at that time, this was the use, and not deemed reproachable.Carcano | |||
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What did Whelen steal? | |||
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| one of us |
.35 "Whelen" .400 "Whelen" But then, this was the use... C. | |||
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Moderator |
quote:He did not steal the designs, he was given credit for them a compliment as it were, though it is questionable exactly how much involvement he had in the physical development of the rounds. | |||
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Moderator |
Oh WAH!! Rob and roger are buddies... "a few dimentions"... means it wont fit in the same chamber, therefore different rounds. I don't hear you crying about the 450 marlin... with ONE change to not make it a 458 2". or whining and bitching about the WSMS... which ARE the XXX Jamison, with .005 diffences in shoulder/length. 470,,,, you might not be axel, but you sure sound like him jeffe | |||
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| one of us |
Paul: of course the word "to steal" is not quite apropriate here. That's what I tried to outline, too. Neither the .35 W nor the .400 W is an original design, both were patterned after European factory cartridges, and got a new star-spangled sticker attached to them :-). C. | |||
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| one of us |
Hopefully, folks get into wildcatting to acheive something other than notoriety. (If not, God help them!) If your 'cat does what you want, then good on you. If you happen to post it publicly before anyone else, then you get bragger's rights. But I for one am glad that I can have Clymer or JGS or anyone else cut a reamer the way I want it without worrying about the legalities of it being too similar to another round, commercial or otherwise. If this guy did just change a few dimensions, hopefully he did it for a performance reason, otherwise he just wasted a bunch of money when he could've used an existing reamer. I'm constantly blabbing about my theoretical wildcats, unsure which will make it to the lathe, but if someone does it before me, I'll ask them to rent me the reamer! It's all about getting the rifle-and-bullet to do what you want it to. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
It may be that the Whelen rounds are much the same as some pre-existing European rounds, but I am not sure the Whelens were mere copies. It seems to me Americans were often quite ignorant (even more than today) of developments in Europe. For example, the Germans were using noncorrosive primers for a number of years before we discovered that it was primer ash, not nitro powders, that caused bore corrosion in smokeless powder arms that weren't cleaned with water!! We never seemed to notice what was happening in Europe, so we continued to ruin bores for quite a while! | ||
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quote:Ah... the history of non-corrosive primers. Still mostly an uncharted field (hic sunt leones...) ;-). I have just browsed through the (rare) Festschrift for the 100th jubilee of RWS' production plant in Stadeln (printed 1996). On page 20, it is stated that the true inventor was a Mr. von Herz, working under the auspices of Dr. H. Rathsburg (director of the RWS chemical-scientific lab). The Sinoxyd (later: Sinoxid) priming compund was first used from 1.8.1926 onward in the military M.71 and M.88 primers, and from November 1932 also in .22 rimfre cartridges. The formal patent was grated on 1.12.1928. | |||
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quote:I been reding ure crap on and off for months, you are a poser punk - get a real life jerkbait - mook | |||
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