New member...great site. I am in desperate need of a set of 7mm Mashburn Super dies. If you have a set or know of anyone that might have a set for sale please pm me. Thanks in advance, powdr

quote:

New member...great site. I am in desperate need of a set of 7mm Mashburn Super dies. If you have a set or know of anyone that might have a set for sale please pm me. Thanks in advance, powdr

Welcome to the board.

I'd post the question in classifieds

Nice calibre! I remember reading an article by Bob Hagel on it in the 1963 Gun Digest. He thought very highly of the 7mm for virtually any North American big game.

What is it built on?

$114 here:
http://www.ch4d.com/

Kiwi a Rem 700 built by Ray Montgomery of Grand Junction,Colorado. powdr

Just curious as to why the Mashburn when the STW would have brass, dies more available and cheaper?

I AM SORT OF A WILDCAT KIND OF GUY HAVING SEVERAL ACKLEY'S AND A 338-06. THE STW IS WAY OVERBORE AS FAR AS CAPACITY FOR THE 7MM.A MASHBURN IS ALMOST THE PERFECT FIT FOR THE 7MM BORE W/ ALL BULLET WEIGHTS (140-175).THE 7MAG IS NOTORIOS FOR HAVING PRESSURE SPIKES AT THE UPPER END...ESPECIALLY W/THE 175gr. JUST MY OPINION BUT IT IS BEARED OUT IN ARTICLE AFTER ARTICLE AND FRIENDS EXPERIENCE.NOW PLEASE PUT YOUR NOSE TO THE GROUND AND HELP ME FIND A SET OF DIES.HERE'S HOPING YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY.powdr

Ken ray Montgomery builds great rifles. I have two guns he has built me and love them both.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
$114 here:
http://www.ch4d.com/

Repeat

Since it is pretty much a wildcat I'd have either ch4d or someone like Hornady make me custom dies to insure they fit my chamber.

280 Dubiel maybe?

I had one years ago. NO special (read expensive) forming dies needed, I just necked 300 H&H down .024" and shot full house loads in my sporterized P-14. A rechambered barrel, cut to 27", and the bolt face opened up. Can't get much easier. I have a Voere Titan II I have considered doing that to.

SHARSHOOTER, Thanks for the reply. Could you be a little more descriptive about the part where you said you necked the 300 hh down .024? Thanks,powdr

Back in the 1930s a smith in Okahoma built designed a couple cases. The 276 Dubiel was basaed on the 275H&H case and I believe a touch smaller than the 7mag. He built a 280 Dubiel based on a full length 300H&H case but used .288 not .284 and got no commercial support. Non of my easy to find reference data as the exact dimensions of either. They are listed in Cartridges of the World.

Remington also mentioned them and several other 7mm options in a 1988 article on the 7mag.

As to your original comment about pressure issues I've loaded a 7mag for more years than I care to think about and NEVER had a issue.


Here is the article

Remington’s Biggest Seven

by Wayne van Zwoll, first published in Bugle, Spring 1988


Is seven the lucky number for elk?


For a long time now Remington has been trading on the number seven. It's been a lucky one for them. The 7mm Remington Magnum in the 700 bolt rifle started it all, and for elk hunters these are the numbers that still matter. So for now we'll forget the svelte Model Seven, the efficient 7-08, the other sevens that Remington sells. For a few minutes, let's explore the big seven.

It began a long time ago, really, with the smokeless 7x57 Mauser. Developed for military use, it was adopted by the Spanish army in 1893. It was not the first 7mm, but it was the first modern 7mm suitable for hunting. It is still a fine hunting cartridge. Shortly, though, shooters started thinking about ways to improve it, to design a more powerful seven.

About the turn of the century in England F.W. Jones designed a 7mm cartridge for Eley and Sir Charles Ross. It was called, inappropriately, the .280 Ross. It was mated to Canadian Ross straight-pull military rifles in 1906 but was soon acclaimed by hunters who wanted to reach far and flat with fast bullets. The big rimless case was pretty well designed, and even with the powders of the day, 160-grain bullets could be driven to 2900 fps. The bullets were, incidentally, .288-inch in diameter, not .284 as 7mm bullets are now.

The Ross killed thin-skinned game quickly, but its bullets lacked penetration on big animals, mostly because they weren't built for big animals. Some hunters used the .280 Ross in Africa and got killed by big animals that didn't die quickly. Consequently the cartridge got a bad reputation. A little prudence would have helped both the hunters and the .280 Ross.

Believing not all shooters to be so naive, the people at Holland and Holland developed a .275 Belted Rimless cartridge based on the .300 H&H case, trimmed. Ballistically, it was very close to the Ross, and both cartridges were loaded commercially in the U.S.. No rifles chambered for them were produced here, though.

A lot of shooters started shaping 7mm cases in the twenties and thirties. Some used Holland's belted brass, others the big rimless .30 Newton. Most of these designs remained wildcats, but Western Cartridge Company produced , briefly, John Dubiel's .276. An improved version of the .276 Dubiel was available from Griffin and Howe. The .288-diameter .280 Dubiel got no commercial support but performed impressively on its full-length .300 H&H case.

Charles Newton, at once among the most brilliant and unlucky of rifle designers, failed with his well-shaped .280. Much later P.O. Ackley had better success with his .276 Short Ackley Magnum. A.E. Mashburn also introduced a belted 7mm wildcat that skilled writer and marksman Warren Page used on hunts the world over.

That's a skeleton view of 7mm history. There's not room to cover the 23 domestic wildcat 7mms listed by Ackley, though some were and are interesting. The .285 OKH, for example, used a duplex powder charge ignited through a flash tube in the case; Wade's Super Seven was a blown-out .348 Winchester with the rim turned off. Through the 1940s and 1950s, only two commercial high-performance 7mm cartridges were available for shooters here.

Remington's big seven was first marketed in 1962, just five years after its own .280 was announced. But much earlier (in 1944) Roy Weatherby had designed a belted 7mm cartridge with even more muscle. An outstanding performer as loaded by Norma, it got limited play at market because for decades only Weatherby chambered it commercially. It is still one of the most useful of Weatherby's line.

Shortly after the war, Phil Sharpe and Dick Hart developed another belted 7mm. The Norma-loaded 7x61 Sharpe and Hart was chambered in the Danish Schultz & Larsen bolt rifle. It drove 160-grain bullets 3000 fps.

With so many people forming big 7mm cases, Remington wasn't really doing something new in 1962. But there's an advantage with an established arms company that promotes a product well. And the introduction at the same time of the Model 700 rifle gave the 7mm Magnum a nice boost. Here was a strong hunting rifle, much more attractive than the 721 and 722 but with their excellent trigger mechanism. The extractor was bigger, and you could get a hinged floorplate. While available in many chamberings, the Model 700 in 7mm Magnum became an instant hit. The cartridge shot as flat as a .270 but hit harder. It killed game like the .30 magnums but with less recoil.

Because the belted seven was almost immediately successful, a lot of what you read about Remington's magnum includes credits. Les Bowman apparently urged the development of the 7mm Magnum because he thought it would be a good deer and elk rifle for hunting his native Wyoming. He noted that hunters didn't shoot very well with big guns because they flinched. Reasoning that they wouldn't flinch as much if they weren't hit as hard, he advocated a smaller bore than .30, with bullets heavy enough to be effective on elk but light enough to be driven fast and cut recoil.

Remington engineers filled that order well. Factory-loaded 175-grain bullets are listed at 2860 fps, 150-grain bullets at 3110. A .30-06 drives its 180-grain softpoint 2700, its 150-grain 2910, while the .300 Winchester with the same 30-caliber bullets chronographs 2960 and 3290. Recoil of the 7mm is about 14 percent greater than that of a .30-06 when loaded with bullets of similar sectional density, but roughly that much less than the .300's. (Velocity figures are for comparison, valid because they're all from factory charts, about equally optimistic!)

The 7mm Remington has been one of those cartridges that seem to kill better than they should. Partly that's due to the bullets available for it. Remington's Core-Lokts have proven to be among the best for heavy thin-skinned game like elk, and while handloaders have dozens of bullet choices now, the first 7mm Magnum factory loads included Core-Lokts. What would the .280 Ross have done with such a payload?

Remington's rifle has also built a reputation for the 7mm. Strong, dependable, affordable and usually accurate right out of the box, the 700 is a standard for modern sporting rifles. Now you can get 7mm Remington Magnum guns of every description; but this widely-chambered round began life in the 700.

Handloaders can do a lot with this cartridge that they couldn’t before the availability of strong, accurate bullets and slow powders like 3100, 4350, 4831, RL-19, RL-22, 7828, and N-205. At 80 grains water capacity, the Remington case has room for coarse extruded powders and a relatively small bore to relieve pressure. So slow propellants are necessary for best results behind even 140-grain bullets,. Slow fuel is the only practical alternative in full-power loads with bullets of over 150 grains.

Because 7mm cartridges of several shapes are popular now, lots of 7mm bullets have become available. Some shooters regard this huge bullet selection a fine reason to buy a 7mm Remington Magnum instead of a cartridge with larger or smaller bore. Choice is good; still, you can shoot only one bullet at a time. Once you've found an appropriate bullet that will shoot well you don't need dozens of other styles .

Another myth to examine concerns ballistic coefficient. There's talk around now that 7mms are better because their bullets have high ballistics coefficients. In truth, ballistic coefficient is simply a mathematical way to express a projectile's ability to drill air. It can be determined by shooting or by a formula that includes sectional density and a form factor. Short bullets with blunt noses have low ballistic coefficients; long bullets with pointed noses have high ones. You can get bullets of high C values in most rifle cartridges, and you can get bullets of low C in most, too.

Sierra's 160-grain 7mm boattail bullet has a C of .561 --very high. But the company's 180-grain boattail in 30 caliber almost matches it at .534. Given the same starting speed, there's virtually no difference in downrange trajectory or retained velocity, even at distances far beyond normal hunting range. Hornady's sleek but short 120-grain 7mm Spire Point has a low C because it's short: .346. That firm's long but blunt 175¬grain bullet has an even lower one : .274.

Construction, weight and shape determine bullet performance in flight and in the game. For elk, heavy bullet jackets and devices to control expansion are in order. Penetration matters, which is why many hunters have relied on Nosler Partitions. Now you can choose from among may fine bullets designed for heavy game: Barnes Triple Shock, Federal Trophy Bonded, Hornady InterBond, Swift A-Frame and Scirocco , Remington Core-Lokt Ultra, and Winchester/ Nosler AccuBond.

This isn't to say bullets of conventional construction are inadequate. Regardless of design, you’re smart to stay with strong bullets reasonably heavy for the caliber when you're hunting elk. In Remington's 7mm Magnum, 160-grain bullets are a favorite with experienced hunters. Even a flat-base 160-grain spitzer will give you a ballistic coefficient of well over .400. Properly constructed, it will bore through lots of tissue and bone, killing your animal cleanly. Lighter bullets may leave the muzzle faster, but they lose energy faster too; for elk, bullets of at least 150 grains are best. The extra weight provides for better penetration and more delivered energy than is apparent on paper. While round-nose 175-grain bullets have the same advantages up close, they limit the effective range of your rifle. Remington's big seven has 400¬yard potential; you can tap that only with bullets designed to buck the atmosphere.

Most rifles chambered for the 7mm Remington Magnum have a twist of 1-9 to 1-9 1/2. Some of foreign make measure 1-10. All are fast enough to stabilize the heaviest bullets commonly available.

Pressures in the 7mm run to 54,000 psi. As with all belted cases, headspacing is on the belt and resizing should be limited to the neck if you're shooting just one rifle. That will greatly extend the life of your brass.

On its 25th anniversary, the 7mm Remington Magnum earned top billing in a popularity survey of 250 Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation members . Now, 20 years later, it remains a first pick for many. Among the most versatile of long-range big game cartridges, it has become a mainstay for deer and elk in the Mountain West.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Just curious as to why the Mashburn when the STW would have brass, dies more available and cheaper?

Coming from a wildcatter like you, I am flabbergasted and flummoxed by that comment.
______________________________________________

RCBS lists the 7mm Super Mashburn Magnum Short in their Special Order list. Group G so it'll be fairly spendy but it's not a custom die.

Pretty sure you can form this from 300 Win brass, so availability is not a real issue.

quote:

Coming from a wildcatter like you, I am flabbergasted and flummoxed by that comment.

Wildcatter??? Me . I've sure been called worse

You will notice I didn't say don't build it. When I decide to build soemthing other than std I normally have a reason like burn less powder, get close without going to longer action, need a new discussion at camp or often just want to be different etc etc.

I was just curious with only a 4gr gain over a 7mag why go to the trouble of a longer action? Which he answered saying the STW was too overbore and he flet the 7mag had pressure spike issue at the higher end. I've never seen the pressure spikes he memtioned in the 7mag but I do agree with the overbore. I've built 3 STWs and have never warmed to them and after a short time I sell it. Only to get the wildhair for one again in a year or two.

If a Mashburn makes him happy then that is what he should build.

Ken,

sorry to be late in answering. The Dubiel was simply the 30 Super necked down to 7mm with no other changes. Just Imperial Sizing Die Wax the .300 case and ease it in the arbor press dies I had. At the time iirc, he worked for G&H as a gunsmith.

Rich

I've got a set of 280 Dubiel dies if that would help anyone here.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:


I was just curious with only a 4gr gain over a 7mag why go to the trouble of a longer action? Which he answered saying the STW was too overbore and he flet the 7mag had pressure spike issue at the higher end. I've never seen the pressure spikes he memtioned in the 7mag but I do agree with the overbore. I've built 3 STWs and have never warmed to them and after a short time I sell it. Only to get the wildhair for one again in a year or two.

If a Mashburn makes him happy then that is what he should build.

The 7 Mashburn fits just fine in any action which can house the 300WM since they both use the same case length.
What I don't get about the 7MSM is why not keep the 300WM's shorter neck instead of pushing the shoulder back to get that long Mashburn neck.
A bit more case capacity and it'd still fit.

quote:

The 7 Mashburn fits just fine in any action which can house the 300WM since they both use the same case length.

If you say so. I understood the normal OAL of the 7MSM as being in the 3.57 range which wouldn't fit in the 3.34" 06 type action. I guess since I have about 95% mausers I think in the 3.34" I assume a m700 would handle it and the m70 with spacer removed and bolt stop and ejector reworked evem left at 3.57. Curious if you left the OAL as 3.34 like the 300wmag just how much net capacity would your really gain over a 7mag?

Like I said a person should shoot what he wants.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

The 7 Mashburn fits just fine in any action which can house the 300WM since they both use the same case length.

If you say so. I understood the normal OAL of the 7MSM as being in the 3.57 range which wouldn't fit in the 3.34" 06 type action. I guess since I have about 95% mausers I think in the 3.34" I assume a m700 would handle it and the m70 with spacer removed and bolt stop and ejector reworked evem left at 3.57. Curious if you left the OAL as 3.34 like the 300wmag just how much net capacity would your really gain over a 7mag?

Like I said a person should shoot what he wants.

I guess I wasn't thinking Mauser!
The LA 700 will swallow full length belted mags (H&H etc.) so the shorter 7MSM fits nicely. The Savage 110 box is 3.46" and the M70 is close too.
That long neck on the 7MSM allows for a lot of bullet seating latitude which is one of the reasons 7MSM fans prefer it over the larger capacity 7Wby.
Given that a chamber will have to be cut it would be prudent to have the 'smith throat it to accommodate magazine limits.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Just curious as to why the Mashburn when the STW would have brass, dies more available and cheaper?

How would the 7mm ultramag compare to these? The RUM has slightly more capacity than the STW, which is about the same as the MSM, right?

quote:

How would the 7mm ultramag compare to these? The RUM has slightly more capacity than the STW, which is about the same as the MSM, right?

The masburn is made form the 300wmag brass "I BELIEVE" using ammoguide capacity I show the MSM as 85grs the 7mag as 81 the STW as 93 and the RUM as 106.

I wonder what niche the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum services today?

I have a new PTG 7mm Mashburn Super Mag finish reamer, a set of RCBS dies, and some new formed Hornady brass somewhere. I will look to see if I can find them.
I was going to put together a mountain rifle a few years back, but ended up buying a ULA instead and shelved the project.

David

quote:

I wonder what niche the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum services today?

Man if I have to come up with a niche for all my wildcats I'm in trouble.

I don't feel the Mashburn has a niche per say but it does serve well as an all round cartridge. The 160 at 3200 and 175 at 30500 is nothing to sneeze at. I think some of the pressure spikes from the 7mag are notably from people trying to squeeze the last few fps out of the cartridge. What most want the 7mag to do at belt busting pressures are easily and safely accomplished at Mashburn safe pressures.I do not want a cartridge that takes over 100grains of powder and the kick to match. I don't want a 7mag...it has never interested me. I do however want a 7Mashburn and am just waiting on Santa Claus to deliver the funds. I have all the components and Ray Montgomery's address. I will probably use the 160gr Partition or Grand Slam as an all rounder and save the 175 for hard heads...if I ever get to hunt one. Guys it's like the 257Roberts and the 257Ackley or the 7x57 and the 7x57Ackley...some people just want a little more. I want to thank the fellow who subscribes to people being able to shoot what ever one wants. powdr

quote:

The 160 at 3200 and 175 at 30500 is nothing to sneeze at

If you do that would be impressive. I built several STWs over the years with 26" I had to push to get 3200 with a 160gr. The norm appears to be more like 3200 with a 160 3400 with a 140 and 3600 with a 120 .

Warren Page was the gun editor for Field & Stream many years ago and was a big fan of the 7MM Mashburn. He was a competitive bench rest shooter so his articles were very informative. I'll bet his articles are archived somewhere and I would think one of his books would have info.

Ken:
Go to the Gun Digest Store and for $10 you can get a PDF of the 1959 issue. Warren Page had a piece in their titled "Old Betsy" which was all about his beloved 7 MM Mashburn. A search on Reloaders Nest forum will provide a spec sheet of the cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Warren Page was the gun editor for Field & Stream many years ago and was a big fan of the 7MM Mashburn. He was a competitive bench rest shooter so his articles were very informative. I'll bet his articles are archived somewhere and I would think one of his books would have info.

A quick look of the index in THE ACCURATE RIFLE by Warren didnot reveal anything.

Never-the-less it is a great cartridge and for the person that wants something different, go for it. Kinda like my .276 Dubiel, I just like it. Others, like my STW will out do it, but at what expense.

quote:

I wonder what niche the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum services today?

The niche is,,,, you wanted something different. That’s a good enough answer.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Ken:
Go to the Gun Digest Store and for $10 you can get a PDF of the 1959 issue. Warren Page had a piece in their titled "Old Betsy" which was all about his beloved 7 MM Mashburn. A search on Reloaders Nest forum will provide a spec sheet of the cartridge.

Mashburn (of Oklahoma City, OK) had at least two different 7m/m Mags he developed and offered to customers. One was a "long" case based on belted H&H brass, and the other was a "short" case also based on belted H&H brass. Both versons existed and were in use by hunters & writers such as Warren Page before the .300 Winchester ever was brought out. When I was last there in 1966, his shop would still make you whichever you wished.

Warren Page pretty much used Mashburn's "short" cased 7-Mag more than the longish one, and it is pretty widely acknowledged to be the "Godfather" of the 7 m/m Remington Mag whichwas introduced in very late 1961.

From where I sit, the MSM had the niche filled long b4 other rounds came along. Unfortunately the gun companies never quite got it right and went with it.

I've a fair bit of experience with the 7 MSM and for me it's been one heck of a round.