Has anyone tried working with the .50 Beowulf case, necking it down while keeping the same overall length? A Beowulf case necked down to .30 or .338 caliber has some potential I think.

Kinda like a M1-Carbine round on steroids! -rob

I think it would be pretty neat, if chambered for .30 caliber, it would be closer to a .300 Whisper on steroids.

I think it would be a little more than that, after necking down, useable case capacity would be over 60 grs.

Rock

Rock8296, I just measured one of my cases and this is what I got.
Case empty - 156 gr
Case full of water - 225.7 gr
Case capacity of water - 69.7 gr

According to my software if I went with a 0.308 bullet, a 0.300" neck length, and a 30 deg shoulder my case capacity would be 53.5 gr of water. That is damn near identical to what my 308 Win cases measure. So it would appear that a next down Beowulf would allow to get a 308 Win level rifle on an AR15 lower....COOL!

Kent

Now imagine that launching .224 cal bullets with sabots...

And the .308 WMSM(Winchester Medium Short Magnum) was born.

Kristofer

[ 07-19-2003, 06:52: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

If Winchester develops yet another length of short magnum...Well, things can get confusing and fast. The idea though was to get a cartridge capable of launching .30 caliber bullets at much higher velocities than the .300 Whisper/Fireball. It would be neat to have near .308 Win. performance out of a regular AR-15.

Urodoji,

Are you serious about developing a 30 or 338 caliber wildcat on the Beowulf case? I have been thinking of a 358 wildcat myself. I think it would be easy to duplicate the ballistics of either the 308 or 358 Win rounds with such a wildcat. 11 or 12 rounds would fit into a 30 rd M16 magazine, accuracy of a AR15, light weight carbine...COOL!

KBguns, a 308 Beowulf would be shorter than a Winchester short magnum by a considerable amount. The case is only 1.65" long!

Kent

I think it has some potential that should definately be explored. Right now however, the only Beowulf I have access to belongs to a customer, and is shipping out on Monday. I think that such a wildcat should probably use .30 or .338 caliber bullets, as there is a much wider selection of bullets than .35 has available. A smaller bullet would also help the big case feed a bit easier, but since it is an autoloader, would need a very gentle shoulder. Then there's the problem of finding a suitable barrel for the beast, and having the chamber reamed, dies made, etc...None of that is exactly inexpensive.

Urodoji,

I have had absolutely no feeding issues with my 50 Beowulf! I am not convinced, by this experience, that a low shoulder angle would be necessary for proper feeding. Remember the Beowulf can only be a single stack feed from an AR15 magazine. No ands ifs or buts about it!

I agree that there is a better selection of 308 and 338 bullets. I was leaning toward the 358 due to the greater frontal area of the bullet. I believe this really does provide a harder hit to the target. However, with the availability of VLD 338 bullets a subsonic 338 Beowulf with a suppressor would be, how should I say it...COOL! Damned good coyote/feral dog rig I would wager!!

I agree with you too about the cost of the necessary tooling. However if we could get several people together on the project the cost could be significantly reduced per person. I think we could find a barrel source with a little searching.

Kent

Greetings -

New here, but folks who frequent AR15.com will recognize the name. A friend brought this topic to my attention and I was hoping I might provide some insight.

First, a small preface - I designed the .458 SOCOM cartridge which is now commercially loaded by CorBon and chambered in the AR-15 by SSK Industries and Tromix. It could be called a Beowulf wildcat. although the cases are NOT the same (ours is shorter with a different rim size). That said, to you topic at hand.

The Beowulf necked to .30 caliber would have surprisingly poor performance. The biggest drawback is the fact that you are dealing with pistol brass that is designed for low operating pressure (35 K psi). For a short 30 caliber round to rival the .308 Winchester, it needs to be driven to very high pressure. We designed a 30 caliber version of the WSSM (Super Short) but found that it still requires 60 K + psi to reach the same velocity as the .308 Win. This puts undue stress on the components, and makes for short life of the bolt.

In the AR-15, the Beowulf necked to 30 caliber and driven to that pressure would cause the lugs on the bolt to fail. The only viable option we feel is taking an Olympic Arms upper in 223 WSSM and turning it into a 308 WSSM. This is fairly easy, simply ream a 30 cal barrel blank with the 223 WSSM reamer and head space gauges, and then throat with a custom reamer to open up the new barrel to 30 caliber. New dies would have to be made, and brass would need to be formed, but it could be done relatively easily. Barrel blanks could be obtained at reasonable pricing and the most expensive item (aside from the WSSM Upper from Oly) would be the dies ....

Regarding the shoulder angle, I witnessed the Oly Arms prototype feed a WSSM dummy from a standard GI magazine without issue. It does require a custom upper receiver, bolt, bolt carrier and barrel extension ...

As to the desire for a .338 Whisper type round, using the large Beowulf case is rather inefficient (Our .458 SOCOM can push a 300 gr bullet to 2,100 fps from a 16" barrel). A mere 10 gr of powder is needed to push the Sierra 300 gr HPBTMK (.338) to 1,040 fps and the smaller the powder volume, the smaller the suppressor can be. Our .338 Spectre does just this in the AR-15, and uses commercial 20 round magazines (that hold 21 rounds).

To recap:
The idea is a good one, but the brass is not the best due to its low pressure rating. Also, the pressure required to reach 308 Win performance puts a lot of stress on the rifle. For suppressed 30 or 338 performance, the smaller cases are more efficient.

Hope this helps?

Be glad to answer any questions.

Marty,
What do you think would be possible if we used Remington Ultra mag cases instead of the factory 50 Beowulf case?

Kent

Kent,

You would have to rebate the rim on the RUM cases in order to keep enough beef on the boltface to keep the rifle safe. Perhaps turned down to 7.62X39 diameter like the Beowulf...

Urodoji,
That was exactly what I had in mind.

Kent

Some fun things can be done with the AR10 though...

Marty,

The more I look at your website, the more I'm digging the .458 SOCOM concept. How much for a 16" A3 configuration(flat top with dust cover, and front sight post)? Also, what are your options as far as flash hiders and the like? I really hate having an exposed crown on my rifles. I also like not having to modify my magazines at all, that is quite an advantage over the AA uppers. Do you have any load data posted on the web?

Thanks,

Aaron

Marty,

Will you possibly be putting the .375-223WSSM concept into production? Given any thought to naming such a beast?

For some reason last night was unable to access this site ... got some "fastdial.net" site ...

As to the price of an upper, depends on some of the options you choose, but if we go with 16" stainless, A3 receiver, free float HG, A2 front sight we're talking $865 shipped (add tax if in TX). For muzzle brakes we like to use the Shrewd, it also does a nice job reducing flash and the factory load is low flash. Those typically add $50 to the upper. We also have a custom made A2 bird cage flashhider for those who want the Mil Spec look.

On the 375-223 WSSM, hadn't really planned on building it, but we can, "all" we need is the dies, the rest is easy enough to obtain. Biggest question is whether Olympic will sell the components or whether we need to "molest" a 223WSSM upper. As to naming the round, why not 375 WSSM?

Drop me a line using the Email listed on the website if you want to discuss further

Forgot to add: load data can be found here http://www.mylittlespark.com/ar15/458_actual_data_7_03.xls

M.

[ 07-25-2003, 06:26: Message edited by: MartytW ]

Marty, apparently the site that hosts the AR main page took a hit, and was down for a bit. The forum is hosted on another site, and it's easiest to just bookmark the forum.

http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

An upper like the one you described is exactly what I had in mind. Will contact you when I'm in a bit better shape for ordering(nobody ever said you make a ton of money working in a gunstore!)

We're all waiting for our million, Marty!

Olympic Arms WSSM Upper

From Olympic's web site, pics of their WSSM upper. You can see their new bolt thru the ejection port.

Kristofer