Has there been a wildcat developed on a shortened 416 rigby case?

Was visually comparing a 45/70 with a 416 Rigby case and it seems a large bore round, with moderate velocity and low pressure, could be developed.

I've looked through all the wildcat books I have, and have not seen anything that has been developed so far. I'm sure there has been, and I'm sure you fellows will let know.

A two inch by 458 would be a great short action round.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

Roger -

The (416) Rigby is 0.5890" at the base and would be 2.000" long.

The 450 Alaskan is 0.5530" at the base and 2.1450" long....

I know one guy here in TX who worked up a 458 WSM, which would be 0.555" at the base, 2.000" long or so, and high pressure ... it might meet your needs? Brass would be cheaper ...

There is always the .458 x 2" American (shortened .458 Win Mag)

Marty,

Thanks for your info. I've done the 450 Alaskan. It's a rimmed case and not for bolt guns. The 458x2 is about the same as the 450 Marlin, so nothing new there either.

The 458 on the WSM might be something of interest. Have you any load data from your friend? I'm not sure, but I think the WSM case is nothing more than a rimless 348 Win. case. Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't have access to water fill for rounds we are discussing, so can't really compare possible loading. If you have worked on the socom, then I'm sure you have much more knowledge as to possible loads for short cases.

Not sure as to type of actions capable of handling a case as large as the Rigby. The bolt face may be a problem also. Anyway, could be a fun project. Will wait for some more input.

Roger QSL

Roger....the only off-the-shelf short-action that will take the Rigby-size bolt-face is the McMillan MCR-T which is the same one John Lazzeroni uses for his rifles. They are a Remington-clone but beefier and they don't come with a trigger...Lazzeroni uses a Jewell but I don't care for them on a hunting rifle so I swapped mine out for a factory Rem 700 trigger tuned by Neil Jones. My Lazzeroni 9.53 Hellcat was made by Lazzeroni but my custom Lazzeroni Patriot was done by a custom 'smith using the McMillan MCR-T action, Sunny Hill bottom metal and a McMillan stock...both rifles have Vais muzzle brakes.

Lazzeroni has necked the Patriot (30-cal) to up .416 and called it the Maverick which he advertises as 400gr bullet at 2400+ fps which is a duplicate of the factory 416 Rigby load (and the Rem 416 too) and as I recall decided not to go up to 45-caliber (concerns about enough shulder to headspace on I believe). The Lazzeroni head size is, as I recall, 0.578" and uses the same shell holder as the Rigby.

Check out the latest edition of "Cartridges of the World" by Barnes/McPherson for dimensions.

Let me add that although Lazzeroni started making his rifles using the Rem 700 long action, after reading an article by Dan Lilja, I don't think they are strong enough to provide a reason margin of error. A lot of the short-actions Lazzeronis have been built on Rem Model 7 and Model 700 actions but by the time you do all the modifications etc you are getting pretty close to the cost of an MCR-T and still have, in my opinion, an action that is marginally adequate for the job.....the Winchester Model 70s are a little better but not much.

The folks making the new short Montana actions believe theirs will be OK but when you are loading to 66,000+ psi I want all the safety margin I can get.

[ 08-10-2003, 11:15: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

Jack Belk had the reamer, headspace guages and dies for a 2.5" .416 Rigby offered for sale a while back.

The Lazzeroni 12.04 Bibamufu is a .475 on the .577" Lazzeroni (case head and rim diameter), 2.80" case length.

The Rigby case has 0.590" rim diameter and 0.589" head diameter just ahead of the extractor groove.

You could certainly do anything short or long up to 0.475 cal. on the Rigby case.

I love the .338 Lapua (identical rim and base as the .416 Rigby) necked up to .458 cal.

The .338 Lapua would be the best case to make a "short Rigby" out of. It is just under 2.7" long when fireformed to 45 Lapua.

[ 08-10-2003, 21:10: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

Couple of things come to mind.
The short-action rounds seem to be marketed towards lighter-weight rifles, something I wouldn't care to chamber a full-power big bore in.
Also, with normal off-the-shelf actions you have to work to get two rounds down and one in the chamber, so the rifle would end up being very low-capacity.
But, if you don't mind that, and just HAVE to have that shorter bolt-throw, a .375 on a 2.0" Rigby case, blown out to .020" taper, with 30 deg shoulder has about 87gr of water, compared to H&H's -what? - 90 or so, and with a 1.2" bulelt seated, there's 76gr, compared to about 78 gr, so cerainly not overbore, and you could probably beat H&H loads, what with the effects of a shorter cartridge.

Still, you have a three-round rifle, with lots of conversion cost, for not a lot of benefit that I can see.
The jeffery case, on the other hand, fits a lot better, gives lots of powder room, and gives about the same capacity as the belted mags.

Now, if you're looking for a benchrest cartridge, then maybe a 6.5-415x2" would be right might behind 30 inches of barrel. You could chamebr it in a 3.34" action and use the longest bulelts available at insane velocities.

Just what would you want it for?

Bwana-be....the McMillan MCR-T action has a magazine capacity of 3 + 1 in the chamber...giving you a loaded up capacity of 4.

Folks seem to get very excited about magazine capactiy but I wonder how many times someone using a bolt-action can get off more than two shots at a charging animal.

DB Bill, 4-rnd cap sounds good to me, but that's not what I was referring to by "off-the-shelf," ($1400 for the action alone!!)
Now, if someone wanted to spend that kind of money for a short-action custom rifle, they can damn sure make it in any chambering they want, but I still have to wonder why.

I have a wildcat idea I hope to see through in a few years (too much on the table at the moment!) which is a 2.5" Rigby/Lapua case, blown out and necked to .475 caliber, COL 3.34"; a short Mbogo of sorts.
[In fact, one of the working names for a while was Mdogo. It is now known as 12x68mm Maus.] But I do have a reason for it.
The idea is to chamber it in a Mauser action without messing with the receiver. Just open boltface and fix feeding, rebarrel.
The benefit is, of course, less work, and I believe it will perform well within the range of acceptability, e.g., 500gr @ over 2300 fps.

So this isn't to say it shouldn't be done, but just to question what result Roger is looking for.
Seems to me the only benefit of a short action is less weight (not a boon with big bores), some theoretical accuracy benefits (shorter=stiffer), and a shorter bolt-throw (possibly something worth looking for, but even less of a big deal than mag capacity!)

Now, if you were to say you were going to make a .375 cal 2.65" off of a 2" 500 N.E. case (like rimmed Rigby) that would work in a Winchester 98 Big Bore, and knew a smith that could do it THEN you'd have me on your side in a heartbeat!

BTW, you are right about mag capacity in general. The third round is usually the "spare," so a fourth is mostly extra cargo, though you just never know....

Bwana-be.....I'm always amazed at the lengths some will go to in order to shave the last few ounces off a rifle yet insist on cramming3 or 4 rounds in the magzine.

I think most folks of average size and larger have a misunderstanding of what makes short-actions appealing to many of us.....I'm 5'8" tall and dress shirt with 32" sleeves is just a little long for me so balance and handling for me is important in a rifle (and a shotgun) and although it isn't a very large difference, the ability to have my hands closer together when shooting a short-action rifle makes shooting it much easier.

Try it with your rifles....hold it naturally and mount it...do it a few times to make sure you have a consistent placement of your hands....now move the forward hand out another inch and see how it feels...if you are over 6' or so more it out 1.5" to 2" .....do you see the difference? That difference in comfort is the only reason I like short-actions.

Fair enough.
That seems like a stock-fitting issue, rather than a chambering issue, and a cheaper fix is available (than a wildcat, that is.)
Doubt that is what Roger was thinking.
I don't really want to press someone to justify their wildcat. I'd much rather see them do it and see what happens!

Bwana-be

But, if you don't mind that, and just HAVE to have that shorter bolt-throw, a .375 on a 2.0" Rigby case, blown out to .020" taper, with 30 deg shoulder has about 87gr of water, compared to H&H's -what? - 90 or so, and with a 1.2" bulelt seated, there's 76gr, compared to about 78 gr, so cerainly not overbore, and you could probably beat H&H loads, what with the effects of a shorter cartridge.

Thanks for the case fill info.

Will want to use a 458 caliber bullet. There should be plenty of shoulder for headspace as there already is a 450 Rigby.

If 70 to 72 grains of let's say 3031 can be loaded behind a 500 grainer, I should be able to get something around 2150 fps, hoping to keep pressures down. This seems to be desired DG load. I was getting 2150 fps from the 450 AK with 67 grains of 3031. This was with a 400 grain slug though.

As to gun weight, the 700 Remington short action I have (left handed), weights almost as much as a 700, 7mm mag I own. A little mercury weight in the stock and it shouldn't be too bad of a shooter.

I know there will have to be magazine, bolt face, and cross bolting work done, but that's expected.

Reamer and dies will be a major problem if I do this conversion. As your well aware, these extra costs may make this type of project not cost effective. Will wait and see if other members have more data on this wildcat.

Thanks to you and the other posters for your input.

Roger QSL

We were working on what we felt was a nice short DG round, we dubbed it the 510 Phalanx. Indeed, the "evil" 50 caliber, but it could be easily converted to 458 caliber. The case is 2.000" long, loaded length with the 500 gr HAWk (50cal) is 2.81" and it was supposed to do 2,400 fps with that load. Problem was finding brass that worked. The dies, etc have already been made, prototype cases formed, but the brass just was no good. So we put it on hold. We have another design in full swing, Horneber is making brass, which was for very different purposes. However, we are willing to consider bringing the 510 Phalanx back to life if we felt we could find a market for the brass ... we would have Horneber make it, and it could be quite suitable for wildcatting. Bolt face would be that of the Rigby, capacity for the 510 Phalanx was estimated at 120 gr water.

Look it up on our website and let us know what you think

Roger, I agree with your performance guess.
That's pretty much Win Mag velocity, with about the same powder.
As for reamer cost, talk with John Ricks. He'll split it with you and keep the reamer, comes to baout $75 your side.
I would recommend that you erase any association between the words "cost effective" and "wildcat."
Find a different reason.
That 450 AK is pretty tuff. What did you have it chambered in? I fantasize about a 358-348 Improved Browning 71 now and again.

Marty,
what you have there is basically the 510 whisper, sans belt. The whisper is based off the 460 weatherby case... which itself is a 416 rigby with a belt. from www.sskindustris.com

top velocity has been more of the 1100-1400 with 750 to 500 grain


oh, yeah, and if you want a JD jones version of a 510 wells/500 a2... try the peacekeeper... my jeffe is cut for the same throat

jeffe

[ 08-12-2003, 20:21: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Martytw,

Specifications for the .510 Phalanx:

Loaded with HAWK 500 gr. Spitzer to 2.81" overall length, the predicted muzzle
velocity is 2,400 fps for use in rifles based around the 7.62 x 51mm NATO
(.308 Winchester) cartridge.

Marty,

Checked out your site. Nice, short and heavy, rounds.

The Phalanx, looks to be real interesting. That round in 458 would be very close to what I've been thinking about. What is the parent case? Looks visually like a Rigby.

If your getting 2400 with a 500 grain, 50 caliber, than 2150 or 2200 should be quite easy for the 458. Should be a very low pressure round. Something I was really interested in.

Let me know what case this is developed on.

Bawana-be,

If your thinking of a wildcat on the 348, stick with the 450 AK. Mine was done for me by the Montana Rifleman. I bought a new Browning 71, had it rebarrelled, and chambered for 450 AK. I had the barrel, cut to 20 inches, and it made for a very fast pointing rifle. As I stated, I was getting 2150 average with 400 gr. slugs. Didn't load it max either. Real jumper at the bench. 40 rounds and you wanted to switch to something a little less finger bruising.

Sold the gun and dies and am still kicking myself.

If you stick with the 450 AK, it will be lot easier for you. Cases from Buffalo Arms are fairly cheap and slugs for the 45/70 are easy to come by. Good luck if you do one. Let me know when you do and I will be glad to send you some of my loading data.

Roger QSL

Jeffe -

JD's new 510 Whisper actually uses 338 Lapua Magnum brass that has a "shoulder" (or more like a ledge) turned in it. JD chambers our 458 SOCOM, so he and I chat on a regular basis. The Phalanx falls more in between his Whisper and Peacekeeper. We prefer a shoulder for headspacing, thus the different design. That, and those belted cases don't work too easily in AR type rifles.

Roger - the base case for the Phalanx is NOT the Rigby. Think BIGGER. We were using 585 Nyati cases, which are rimless versions of the 577 NE case. Those didn't work well, so now we are looking at a source for rimless 577 Snyder cases, that would work better. We have the rim rebated to the Rigby size, and with the 750 Amax seated out, can get some really nasty velocities going in the LONG actions.

CH Tool and Dies has the dies, but we never had the reamer cut because of the brass supply issues. If we can find a market for 1000 or so pieces of this brass, it would be worth getting the brass, reamer and gauges made, and we would offer the reamer and gauges for rent.

Marty,
the parent case of the 338 lap is the 416, with improved brass. which means that you could take a 460 weatherby and turn off the belt, a 416 rigby, or a 338 lap and 'get there from here'.

I think your idea is pretty cool... but with the price of the lap and the rigby brass, I would suggest you start with the 460

jeffe

Well, see, that's the trick. IF my source comes through for me, the formed Phalanx brass will be cheaper than the Lap or Wby or Rigby brass ....

Heck, the brass Dieter is making right now, not counting the tooling cost, is cheaper than several of those ....

And a 2" case with 120 gr capacity is something to behold ....

Marty,

Do you have the case demensions handy? Would like to see them.

Roger QSL

Roger, I'm the one Marty was referring to about the 458 WSM. I have the reamers,plans,etc. I've slowed down on the project and am working on a pistol cartridge project.

Marty, have some new brass coming in on this project. I'll keep you posted.

Dan

If you could find anything out about the 458 Jamison, that would give you a good idea of the performance of the 458 WSM. There's about one grain's difference with a seated bullet.
Same dimensions on a Rigby/Lapua case gets you 8 grains more (about 9.5% increase.) You can get another 9 grains by designing it for a 3.1" action, like the M70. Something like 90+ gr with a 1.2" bullet. Compare that to about 50gr for the 45/70, maybe 75 for the 458W, maybe 104gr or so for the 460 A-Square stubby. (This last one claims 2450 with a 500gr bullet!!!)

Put it in a 7# M70 Classic with a 20" bbl, download it to 400gr at about 2100 fps, and I might just start getting interested....
But it sure makes me think of the 416 caliber instead.

You can also just push the shoulder of the 460 A-Square SHORT back and trim it to 2.0 inches. Heck, leave the belt on...it won't hurt anything. The 460 A-Square SHORT has a 2.5 inch long case and works in a 458 Win action.

Or, you could use the belt to advantage and leave it straight and thump away with .510 bullets. With a useable case capacity of 83 grains of water, this number will generate 7000 FPE at 53,000 CUP using powders in the Lil'Gun through R7 range of burn rates. Optimal bbl length would be 20 inches with that type of expansion ratio.

To make it practical from a recoil perspective, drop the pressure to 37,850 CUP for 5000 FPE. A 535 gr 500 Jeffery at 2050 fps will get the job done. Or, for single shot fun, plink away with 50 cal sabots designed for high pressure muzzle loaders.

Gents,

Thanks for the posts. Sorry about late response. Just got back from Lost Wages and brought up the box.

Marty,
Will send my "E" as soon as I post this. Thanks.

Dan,
The 458 WSM may be the route if brass for the Phalanx is hard to come by. Thanks.

Poorer than before,

Roger QSL

I am shooting a 450/110 which is based on a full length 50/110 case necked to .458 cal. Shoots a 420 grain bullet around 2400 fps.

Case length is 2.4 inch OAL is 2.88 inch.
Recoil is significant out of an 86 Win Extra lite.

What ever happened to the single stack mag box Fritz454 is making. Those would work great with the short rigby wildcat or with the 460 short a-square as feeding from a traditional double column mag is a challange with that round.

Just a few thoughts....

Roger,

I'm doing theWsm's and Remington short mags in 375,411,416,458,475 and 500. I'm also having file trim dies made for the remington short mags, so you can use regular ultra mag brass and cut them down.

Dan

Marty,

Thanks for the 510 Phalanx specs. Took my son to get the picture out. HI
The case is very bigggg. The Rigby is big, but yours is bigger. 590 versus 640. And this is the rim, not the base. Not many actions out there for this much brass.

Dan,

Your 458 on the WSM. What loads have you worked up, and what ballistics are you getting? This may be the way to go.

Not getting any other responses as to the short Rigby. Guess it hasn't been done yet.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

[ 08-20-2003, 10:40: Message edited by: Bwana-be ]

New to you forum. I saw an interesting cartrige yesterday built on a 460WBY shortened to about 1 1/2" was from the mid 50's. An old BR champion shooter named Don Hill had it and used it in a sporter class. It was popular in 224 and 6mm. He said it was a little abusive

Gents,

Now that we have tossed these thoughts around, what are the case demensions for the 450 Vincent Short?

Roger QSL

"Tell me some more about this.

Where do you get the brass, how much does it cost?
It's begging to have an extractor groove cut, rim turned off, necked to .375" (or .338" or...) and chambered in a 3.1" bolt action! That's a wee over H&H capacity there.

Actually, did some figuring on a 416 cal with a .5380" shoulder (same as WSM) and with a 1.2" bullet seated to 3.1" it has a couple grains MORE powder than the full-length Rem Mag with same bulelt at 3.6"...."

Brass is new manufactured from Starline. About 75 cents per case. Bought lifetime supply of 500 cases to get started. What you describe would be similar to the Heavy Express line of cartidges. Would probably be similar to using a 404 Jeffrey case though.

Jeff

Jeff, yeah, similar, but you could move the shoulder forward from the Heavy Express, and really use up that extra .3" of action.
A to whether there's a real difference between this and a Jeffery .012" thinner, I can't say, but I would imagine so. I think if I were really trying to squeeze out "magnum" performance from a short action, though, I'd take the extra.

Roger, I don't know the exact dimensions, but Howell also did the same sort of thing, .458 on a 2 1/2" Jeffery. But I bet Vincent's loads are pretty darn hot. Anyone with QuickLoad care to figure a pressure estimate?

404 Jeffery cut to 2.5, necked to .458", 30 deg shoulder, left at original 2.00" and .530" gives 106.5 gr to the top, according to RCBS.
I don't have lengths for any 500 gr bullets, but isn't there a database in QL?
Give it a 22" and a 24" bbl, if you don't mind.

While you're at it, more to the point of the original post, the Rigby, cut at 2.1, with a .40" neck and blown out to .570" at the shoulder, same 45 degrees, has 96.5gr capacity.
Part of the problem is that these bullets are so dang long, you put a 1.2" bullet in a 2.8" round, there ain't a whole lot left for powder!
But one good thing, it's got an expansion ratio of about 11!

Bawana-be,

Ok, I think your coming up with a design. Cut the case to an even 2" and keep the over-all loaded length to 2.8 inches.

With your estimate of 95+ capacity, should be able to get 70+ grains of powder. This should accomplish my desire to achieve 2150 fps with a 500 grain slug, with low pressure. Lower pressure is really my prime concern coupled with the 500 grain bullet at 2150.

My question is, how is this design handeled as far as getting a set of dies made and a reamer for the chamber? Are there die manufactures that will custom make this type of die. I'm sure the reamer could be formed from a sized case from the new dies. Again, not sure as I've not done this before.

Hopefully someone with this level of experience will comment as to the procedure.

Roger QSL

Roger, talk to John Ricks.
He will see you from beginning to end.
Buy some brass, send it to him, with your chamber specs.
He mics the brass, and custom orders a reamer, and splits the cost. (He keeps the reamer.)
He'll tell you everything you want to know about conversion, and seems to know at least as much as everyone else about how a to build a stock around a big bore.

What rifle are you planning to use?
The Winchester can handle 3.1", so there's no reason to go through all this and not use the space. You said you wanted lower pressures....

It'll cost you about $4-600 plus custom dies.

BTW, as for the Vincent short, it's probably about .541" at base, .530" at shoulder, 30 to 40 degree shoulder, at least .40" neck.

Using the numbers provided above, I ran some rough QL simulations. Here are the results

404 Jeffery cut to 2.5", necked to 458 caliber, 106.5 gr capacity, 52,900 psi max pressure. Bullet choice was Speer 500 gr AGS-SP, seated to 3.1" as requested in previous post

22" barrel, 78.1 gr H414, 51600 psi, 2110 fps
24" barrel, same load, 2146 fps

416 Rigby cut to 2.1", necked to 458 caliber, 96.5 gr capacity, 47100 psi max pressure. Bullet choice again Speer 500 gr AGS-SP, seated to 2.8" overall length.

22" barrel, 58.5 gr IMR 3031, 45000 psi, 1970 fps
24" barrel, same load, ~2000 fps

I can run some other numbers (or different bullets). If you're going with the Jeffery, the 460 Van Horn seems very similar, albeit a belted round. All the other dimensions are just about the same, but you gain about 15 gr capacity according to QL.

Edited to raise the pressure on the Rigby from 41K to 45K and adjust load data.

[ 08-24-2003, 06:55: Message edited by: MartytW ]