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I'm considering having my 30-06 reamed out to '06 Improved. What type of gains in velocity will I see? What will the new case capacity be? I'd like too get 3100fps out of a 150 grain bullet. How easy is it to get dies to reload this caliber? Will the chamber reaming affect the accuracy of my rifle? What does this typically cost? My gaol is to get an efficient cartridge similar to the Rem SAUR. Would I be better off rebarreling my Rem model 700? | ||
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I have heard that the '06 and its variants were among the least benefited by improving. I doubt you'd see another 150 fps. Shouldn't affect accuracy, anymore than cutting the first chamber; it all depends on having someone do it who knows what they're doing. I considered doing this for a wqhile, but then realized what I really wanted was magnum performance from a non-mag case. Not really fair to the rifle/brass. Sounds like what you want is right inbetween a 30-06 and a 300 Win. You might just have to picl a side. | |||
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I almost built one once. A reliable source said to expect about 100fps no more. I wound up building a 300WM. MtnHtr | |||
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Just had a thought. Check out the 300 Hawk. Also I think Howell made a similar number on a lengthened '06 case. They should do what you want. [ 10-18-2003, 01:31: Message edited by: Bwana-be ] | |||
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I have a .30 Gibbs (about the most you can do w/the .30-06 case). With RL15 and WW brass, I safely shoot 150gr BT's @ 3165fps out of my commercial Mauser 98 24" sporter. This load is the most accurate I have ever shot (2-3 rd holes touching @ 100yrds). I have gotten more velocity using R-P brass with other bullets, but have yet to try it with the 150's. If the other results are realized with the 150's, I think I will be well over 3200fps. Mine cost $75 plus shipping/insurance both ways. Personally, if it were me I would only rebore the .30-06 if it shot badly or was worn. For me the .30-06 by itself is still a great cartridge. Deke. | |||
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I have an 06imp. and love it! I'm shooting 180gr Hornadys at 2900fps with 64gr of RL22 and a 24" barrel (work up loads in your gun, this load is only safe in my rifle). I was only getting 2700 from the factory 22" factory barrel. I think the effort was well worth the time and expense. If you like to tinker like I do then I say you should do it. If you only have a 22" barrel I might see if you could find a factory take-off that's 24" or even 26". Elk Country | |||
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I too have a 06AI on a 03a3 with a 24" military barrel. of the three powders i have worked up with so far, only 165g bullets, I have gotten a load with varget that is around 3000fps, but on the hot side. all in all, considering you have to fireform cases and only see marginal gains, I would say don't bother. Serioiusly. I think I paid 50-75 to have it done. I think gains that small are not worth it. Now, there are cartridges that benefit from Improvements and are worth it, 257 roberts, 7x57, 35 whelen etc. But for such a small cost to have it done if you want to play with it and see it might be worth it. everybody's rifle is different, it might work out well for you. Dies should be easy and not expensive, mine are RCBS (very old set). accuracy should be no different except for variations caused by velocity. Red | |||
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elkhntr - save your money. This is what you will get with an improved 06 chamber. According to my records Remington 30-06 brass has an average case capacity of 67.5 gr of water. If you improve your chamber the same Remington brass, now improved, will have a capacity of 71.2 gr of water. If you maintain equivalent chamber pressure between the two cases, at the very best, you will realize approximately a 50-60 fps advatange with the improved chamber/case. More realistically, you will realize a velocity increase of 30 - 50 fps, again IF you maintain an equivalent chamber pressure. If you load your improved case to the point just before the primers blow out you may be able to get 150 fps more out of it. Simply put it allows you to burn a little more powder, resulting in a little more energy released. Here is an alternative method, though. Again according to my records S&B, Sellier and Bellot, 30-06 cases have a case capacity of 72.2 gr, that is a whopping 7% increase over the Remington case and even more over Winchester. This is simply, due to the fact, that the case walls are thinner. If you load this case to the same pressure as the factory Remington case you should realize a velocity improvement over both the Remington 30-06 and the improved Remington 30-06. The best part is you spend no money on a rechamber job plus S&B ammo is cheap! Just the facts. Besides all that, the 17.5 degree shoulder of the stock 06 feeds smoother than the 40 deg Ackley shoulder does! | |||
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Elkhntr The 30-06 Improved is a hotly debated wildcat. Some people get small velocity increases and some people get good velocity increases. Here is the reason some guys get differant results. If you have a 22 inch barrel forget it, you need a 24 inch minimum to realize any improvement................................... The second reason some of us get nice increases in performance is when you rechamber the barrel, make up a dummy round with a 180 grain bullet seated so the base is even with the shoulder/neck junction of the case, then have your gunsmith throat the chamber accordingly. This will give you slightly more powder capacity and your best performance with this conversion is with 165 to 180 grain bullets. Finally make sure your gunsmith understands Ackley Improved cartridge design, most important the fact that he must set the barrel back to enable him to headspace MINUS .004. The only negative part of this conversion is the dies are a little pricy but so are any wilcats. If you are on a tight budget dont do it, but if you like to experiment remember that wildcats are like custom rifles in that you can not economically justify them. | |||
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Elkhntr - Years ago my roommate in college converted a milsurp 30/06 to the 06/AI. More recently my next door neighbor did exactly the same. Both of their results were very favorable. Fireforming cases was no problem. Neither are there any feeding problems. (Especially true with milsurp rifles that will feed almost anything.) A good way to think of the 06AI is a poor man's .30 cal magnum. It's an excellent and inexpensive way to trick out old military rifles. | |||
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elkhntr, I guess you could call me one of Parker Ackleys deciples. I have used and enjoyed Ackley IMPROVED cartridges for about 35 years now and I have never personally had a rifle chambered for the 30/06 Ackley, I have quite a bit of experience with other Ackley chamberings. They thrive on long barrels and slow burning powders. For the paltry amount of money involved, my advice would be to go for it! Dies are available from all the major die makers.Accuracy is unchanged and you can shoot factory ammo. Like Pecos45 said it is a poor mans magnum. Try it you'll like it. And Judy, you should try to arrange a date with savage9.9, you two seem to have a lot in common. Stepchild | |||
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For a long time I was interested in the 06 Ackley Imp. In order to make a realistic comparson between the std 06 and the improved chamber I took a brand new 24 in stainless barrel chambered in 30-06 and fitted it to a 98 action. I worked up max loads with 150,165 and 180 gr bullets and IMR4350,RL19 and RL22 in all 9 combinations and chronographed them. I then had the same barrel re-chambered for the Ackley Imp.and worked up new max loads in all 9 combinations.Best improvement was with RL22 and the 180 bullets but it was less than 100fps. Most of the increases were between 50 and 70 fps.There was less than 50 fps increase with the 150 gr bullets.There may be some barrels out there that deliver impressive velocity in an Ackley Imp,a Gibbs or some other chambering but I would bet they would have delivered above average velocity in a std chamber (a fast barrel).You can't compare one barrel to another.I'm not disappointed with my 06 Imp. It will deliver a 180 gr bullet at an honest 2900 fps and it groups a little over an inch at 200 yds.Damn fine rifle! I also agree with Craftsman when he said make sure your gunsmith understands the Ackley headspaces .004" LESS than std 06. | |||
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stepchild 2 - whatever do you mean? It is all about volume increases. I illustrated in my last post a way to achieve a case volume increase, by simply using S&B brass as opposed to Remington or Winchester, without having to pay $150 to $200 for a chamber job. In the end the results would have been the same. Sorry if that upsets you. | |||
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Judy, Working from your theory if you used the same brass in the Ackley Improved the velocity would also increase, would it not? I would be interested in hearing about your experience with Ackley Improved cartridges, loads, velocities,case life,etc. And your estimate for rechambering is inflated. Last fall I had a 700 Remington rebarreled,the action completely blueprinted and the cost was $225.00 which included bead blasting all the metal when it was finished and inletting the barrel channel for the larger barrel. What upsets me is someone badmouthing a cartridge based on hearsay or something read out of a magazine without any actual experience, please correct me if i'm wrong. Stepchild | |||
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stepchild 2 - if you used the S&B brass in an improved 06 chamber you would realize an even greater volume advantage over the Remington and Winchester cases. My 'quote' for rechambering is based upon the costs that gunsmiths in this area charge. They are MUCH cheaper evidently in your neck of the woods. As far as, 'bad mouthing' a cartridge goes I simply stated results from an analytical analysis. Results I might add, which seem to follow closely, what the vast majority of responses on this thread have said. I have had some first hand experience with the 06 improved and it was not the 'magnum' it was hyped up to be. I suggest you stop believing everything you read in magazines . Just some friendly advise, get some thicker skin, grow-up a bit, or both! I wasn't picking on your favorite cartridge. I WAS stating the FACTS about it! | |||
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quote:Judy, The 30/06 Ackley Improved wasn't conceived as a Magnum, rather, an efficient cartridge that reduces bolt thrust,minimizes case growth and extends the life of the brass. And as far as being my favorite cartridge it isn't, I don't own a 30 caliber rifle in any chambering. But rest assured if I wanted a 30 it would be a long barreled Ackley. I get my information from actual experiences in the field and data collected from my Oehler 33. I presently own three rifles chambered in Ackley Improved cartridges and another one being built by Jim White.Draw your own conclusions. Stepchild | |||
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Judy, Does that mean you are not in favor of AI's for you. Or are you going to try to eliminate all of them for all of us that enjoy them? Mike | |||
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stepchild2 - pray tell, how does the AI 06 reduce bolt thrust when loaded to the SAME pressure as the standard 06? I would like to know how your Oehler 33 determined this? This is more of PO Ackley's BS. Why don't you try shooting some of you non-AI cases with those long barrels you seem to favor. You will find the AI improvement not so significant them! Barrel length is a much BIGGER velocity booster than the rather insignificant case capacity increase associated with the AI design. Soundman - I really could care less whether anyone owns or shoots AI cartridges. This is a free country, and I like it that way, so I say shoot whatever 'floats your boat'. I am simply stating the facts about this particular cartridge. You may spend you money however you see fit! All this defensiveness. . . I wonder way the truth really is all this painful? [ 10-31-2003, 17:43: Message edited by: Judy ] | |||
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Well, I'll skip over the engineering diatribes, and just say what I've personally observed. Whitworth Mauser, 24" barrel. Got 2950 fps with 150 gr Hornadies before improving, got 3100 after. With 180 gr Remington's got 2800 before, got 2925 after. Worked up loads measuring cases using Waters' method and a chronograph. Velocities checked in July at 85 degrees F, and in October at 10 degrees F, and averaged. For me, in this rifle, with those bullets, on those days, it worked quite well. As for the theorists, well, slag away, I guess. FWIW - Dan | |||
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quote:Judy, Your question about bolt thrust tells me that you have no experience with any Ackley Improved, if you did you wouldn't have to ask. Measuring bolt thrust with a chronograph, where did that come from? You're obviously just looking for an arguement, look elsewhere. I said what I had to say, end of story. Stepchild | |||
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Personally I feel that P.O was just a few years ahead of Win with their WSM's........grins Just my thoughts "GET TO THE HILL" Dogz | |||
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Mark, Agreed, about 40-50 years ahead. Stepchild | |||
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Actually, I think Newton was FAR more significant, in regard to cartridge design, than Ackley! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} stepchild 2 - please educate me as to how the Ackley case design reduces bolt thrust. I am begging you. Currently, my limited knowledge of bolt thrust is this: The bolt thrust is due to the internal pressure of the cartridge working against the case head. I am therefore, having trouble understanding your statements about Ackley modified cases since the internal pressures are the same, as well as, the case heads. <between for example, stock 06 and an Ackley modified 06>. I am not trying to start anything. I simply want to learn. I have stated my current understanding, so please tell me where I went wrong. | |||
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