Playing with my wildcat designer program today.
For you courageous souls who dare to brave into the unknown waters of wildcattery, despite the unceasing barrage of attacks by those who would insist on sensibility with regard to cartridge selection, I thought I would share the fact that (apparently) the Lapua Mag case, when set up for a COL of 3.08" and a neck base around 1.1" - 1.2" below that, and a 35 deg shoulder, and blown out to .0065"/inch, holds as much water as the full-length and blown-out H&H case (think 7mm STW, 8mm Rem Mag, 358 STA, 375 Weatherby, etc.) This holds true all the way thru the 470 Capstick....
So, not sure how many rounds of Lapua Mag you could fit into your rebarreled Winchester WSM, but you'd have it in a neat little package, just like you like.
With this last number, for instance, H Powley told me I could get 2400 fps from a 500g Swift out of 24" of barrel, under 50k CUP.
And in my little 8# gun, that would only be about 100 ft/lb of recoil.
How does that sound?
Or how about the .308" version, with a 180g North Fork going 3100 fps from a 24" tube, under 50k CUP? 32 ft/lb of recoil for the fair-wristed.
Or for the nephew's first centerfire, the 375" and its 270g North Fork at 2850 fps and 49 ft/lb.

You see where I'm going.
And always remember, Homer would never lie to you.

[ 11-04-2003, 14:40: Message edited by: Bwana-be ]

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jeffe

Bwana-be, i Like the way you Think!
What would your little wildcat do with a 250gr. 9.3 Northfork?

Well, of course, Powley is just a good guesser, but considering that the SD is a just little less for the 9.3mm 250g than the .375" 270g, you could guess it would be about the same velocity, maybe a hir higher. (Same SD's usually shoot a little slower in a smaller bore.)
Since it holds the same powder as the full-length belted in it's blown-out form, you could check with Charlie Sisk about his 9.3 Sisk, and see what it's doing, and assume the same.

Big question for me, how much work does it take to get three Rigby-thick cases down the M70's magazine?
Not sure why, but 3+1 has always felt like the right amount for a magnum hunting rifle.

And note, this COL wouldn't work in a Rem, not sure about Savage or Ruger ( ithink Ruger is good.) MRC will work.
The others are 2.8" COL.

I may be wrong, but aren't some of the short Lazzeroni rounds builton the shortend .416 Rigby/Lapua case?

sounds very cool.......

alright, who's going to go first?

My Lazzeroni Patriot (30-caliber) easily exceeds 3100 fps with a 24" barrel. Don't know what the pressure is but I've loaded some brass more than 5 times and no sign of primer pocket expansion. Head size is 0.578" with COL of 2.78".

Maybe someone with QuickLoad could give you an estimate of your pressures. Moden loads are usually around 52k, and handloaders easily get into 54k when looking for pressure sings.
Seems like I heard Lazzeroni factory loads are around 57k?
Anyway, if you see what that one will do, just imagine bigger.
You get three rounds down on that? If so, I'm sure the same with Lapua could be managed.

Factory Lazzeroni cartridges are typically loaded to about 66-67,000 psi.

The Lazzeroni action is the short McMillan MCR-T modified by McMillan to handled the bigger case head with ease and as my grandfather used to say they are "hell for stout". Magazine capacity is 3 down and one in the pipe and no problems feeding.

I have a Hellcat which is a 375-caliber based on the same case and it readily exceeds 2550 fps with the 300gr Nosler Partition...it is, however, past this point that recoil is more obnoxious than I want to take as my rifle is fairly light-weight. I've got Hellcat brass that has been loaded more than 10 times (anneal after every 4 or 5 loadings) and the primer pockets are still tight.

I would not try to achieve this level of performance without the combination of the very strong Lazzeroni brass and the tough McMillan action.

Bahh. The M70 is chambered into some pretty mean rounds, like the 470 Capstick, for instance, and And it has about a third more muzzle energy than that little 375. (A good round, BTW.)
You just have to set it up right, with crossbolts, glass bed, etc. No worries.

It's not about muzzle-energy it's about bolt-thrust....check out the Lilja barrel web-site and see what Dan has to say.

i always thought the 416 short mag would be the cats ass in a DM or adl bolt gun.
23" tube and a small variable. 300 yards and out hitting like a freight train.....
makes me all fuzzy inside
woofer

I look around and see quite a few folks converting M70's to 338-378 or some other Weatherby-based round, Van Horn did his 460 on a Mauser (same as M70 basically), and I think Savage Arms is chambering the Lazzeroni.
Now, I won't discount the concern about bolt thrust and lug set back, but I think if there were a serious problem, we'd be hearing about it.
And again, the loads I mentioned, to duplicate full-length and blown-out H&H cases, were under 50k CUP, which significantly reduces bolt thrust.
I am certain a knowledgeable smith could handle it. And that it would work great in .416- or even .475- cal with a 24" bbl!

John Lazzeroni actually started out using the Rem 700 action and Mark Bansner certainly makes a lot of custom rifles for the Lazzeroni cartridges using both the Rem 700 and the winchester 70 (which he prefers) so there is certainly plenty of "other" views out there.

My basic feeling was if you are going to the expense of building a custom rifle rather than "fixing" an action to make it work why not spend a few extra dollars and get one that will work as designed....but that's just me.

D & Bwana-Bs.
You are both on track as you probably enjoy the toys you chose to play with. Some folks seem to talk about it rather than do it. If that is an enjoyable toy that's just fine. I enjoy designing wildcats and I love shooting them.Since I first started designing them in the late 50s till I resently joined this forum I haven't really had a large opurtunity to discuss the game in any detail.Originally I was writing to Warren Page but his wildcat interest were elsewhere. (.243PSP)
These threads are becoming a new toy for me.

OH MY GOD!!! You mean you're just going to pull the factory barrel and run a reamer into it and then screw it back into the receiver and do nothing else? The inhumanity of it all!!!!

But to answer your question....(1)McMillan MCR-T action ($1250), (2) Quality barrel chambered and fitted ($400), (3) McMillan stock ($500), and (4) Robar NP-3 coating on metal ($250) for a total of $2400.00

... and so you see my point.
Anyway, this all started out with me goofin' around with the software, but it seems viable.
If I were to do it, yeah, I'd prolly just rechamber a 7mm WSM and go shooting.
$650 + $75 + $150 + dies.
Easy as 3.14159265!
Even if it stayed a single-shot for awhile, that would give me time to decide if I like it enough to dive into feeding the thing.
To me, sounds like a great 'cat to fool with.
Low commitment. The rechamber it to a 22" .475 cal!!!

Bwanabe,

I think some of that pi got in my i!