I have run into a lot of negitive flack every time I mention a wild cat to what are supposed to be good gun smiths. And not long after I have talked to them someone is shooting just what I wanted made. All I get is things like "you will burn the barrel out before getting a load worked up" or "it can't be done". It is my barrels I will burn up and my money to make it. I need some rifles builders with an air of adventure and imagination especially if the same or close to the same thing has been built and in use. And just because they may not like the caliber I am using it is my call. Know anyone out there like that?

An example of the flack I have received. I have a very good 7.7 Jap rifle that shoots well. I wanted to rechamber it for 30/06 necked up to the .311 bullet. This would let me use the full length 30/06 case and allow slower burning powders to work better. It would be a simple thing as you can use shortend 30/06 cases anyway. then it would be a 7.7/06. Know anyone who might do it with out charging enough to buy a new rifle? It is done all the time on other rifles.

I don't know who you're talking about, but I'd be surprised if three smiths in a row said that. Not sure the rifle you're planning to rechamber, but there's no way a .311-06 could be called a barrel burner.
It may be that the particulars of your action do not lend themselves to the longer cartridge. You're only talking about .02" so it seems likely it could be found on one side or t'other.
If you have heard the same thing from three smiths, maybe - just maybe - they know about which they speak.

Why worrying about a 'smith?

a Smith will likely charge you about what the tools to do the job yourself will cost...

You will need:
a 30-06 finishing reamer (IMPORTANT!) WITH A REMOVABLE PILOT.

Because to do what you want you'll need to replace the .300 nominal pilot with a 303 pilot

You'll also need a "throating reamer" because the normal 30-06 will not do this.

You'll need something to turn the reamer with, a can of cutting oil, some aerosol degreaser (to remove the cutting oil and chips) and you'll need a standard 30-06 "GO" headspace guage.

What you are proposing isn't rocket science to accomplish.I'm sure others will provide details and many here will be willing to "talk you through" the proceedure.

AllanD

Whoa there, pardner. (And welcome to the board, btw.) I'd like to assume you've performed this sort of operation before, but I won't, not knowing you from Adam.
It ain't rocket science, but it is gunsmithing. You may be able to get a chamber cut that will hold your round, but without setting it up and cutting it in a lathe you have no way to maintain concentricity. If it shoots well, it may be mostly luck. All the more so if you're taking the extra step to cut a separate throat. Furthermore, unless you use a pull-through reamer (not sure what it would cost to get one with a removable pilot) you'll need a way to get the barrel off and back on,
Now that you've managed those minor details, you still have an action that feeds a 3.12" round trying to shoot a 3.34" round. So, get out your file and try to whittle away .2" of hardened steel from the back of the action, then modify the magazine (integral on the Argentine, isn't it?) and bolt stop and anything else I don't know about the rifle. Then try your hand at modifying the rails to feed your new configuration well.
After that, crack open a beer. You'll need a hangover tomorrow to justify the poor groups you get.

There is no reason to assume that you need to load the 30-06 to 3.340" OAL, a little extra rifling jump isn't a full out greek tragedy and you are only "touching" the throating so there is SOME throat, you can even "short throat it"
because loading the rounds to fit the magazine there will be lots of "jump".

And WHY are you talking about an "Argentine" this discussion is about an ARISAKA type 99 7.7x58!

There is no reason to assume that the chamber will be out of concentricity enough to notice accuracy wise...
(and who's to say that the ORIGINAL CHAMBER ic concentric?) remember we ARE talking about a 7.7x58 Type 99 Arisaka here... and while some of them were "OK" others weren't exactly something you'd be proud to own and the "last ditch" rifles were pure crap.

Remove the barrel? yes, that is the "right way" to do it, if you are looking to not only dot lower case I's and cross all
T's, but are also determined to dot or cross the J's where appropriate....

The job CAN be done the way I mentioned and the results will probably result in a rifle that shoots as well as it does now, possibly better and BTW the quality of results will be entirely determined by the steadiness of your hand, and ability to avoid side loading the reamer.

But the job CAN be done with a long reach Reamer holder that is really designed for "finish chambering"

If you suffer under some kind of dillusion that everyone uses a "pull through" reamer to finish chamber any wildcats you should check reamer prices

Remember also you aren't cutting a NEW chamber in a "blank" but only lengthening an exsisting chamber in a cartridge that's which is a far less critical operation.

in point of fact "short chambered barrels" are usually cut 0.050" short to allow them to be finish chambered AFTER they are installed onto the acton they are being fitted to.

Here is a bit of dimensional education:
(Case dimensions but chamber dims are relative)
Case head to shoulder,
Arisaka 1.872
30-06 1.948
0.076" longer

Case head to base of neck
Arisaka 1.968"
30-06 2.109
0.041" longer

Overall length?
Arisaka 2.270"
30-06 2.494"
0.224" difference, but this is the case neck and is the EASIEST part of the cutting job.

So the reaming job is in essence little more than a finish chambering job

Unless you are a complete clutz (or side load it like "CONAN" the reamers base body won't want to "bite" against the smooth side walls of the chamber near the case head ANYWAY...
and if you are worried about that happening you can intentionally "dull" the reamer in that area
(that takes a few SECONDS with a dremel)

However if you want to "turd polish" (No offense to owners of 7.7Arisaka rifles) yeah, you can chuck the barrel in a lathe and run the reamer in with the tailstock with a floating reamer holder... that works real well IF you have a lathe.
(Yes, I do, but that's not part of this discussion) and you are interested in going to those lengths.

a "pull through" reamer? That'd work but the chamber neck will still come out undersize....(for using .311 bullets)

I'd discuss alternate methods to enlarge the neck of the chamber 0.03" to allow for the larger bullets, but that you could more easily deal with by simply turning the case necks thinner with an outside case neck turner.

You only need to take off 0.0015" in thickness of the case neck to accomodate the extra 0.003" worth of bullet.

Bur in the end:
What is most important? How the rifle will be used!

If the rifle is used to blow up watermelons inside 100yds why bother?

But I seriously doubt that we are talking about a match quality target rifle here....

AllanD

The 7.7/06 wasn't the wild cat most smith's I talked to were complaining about. At one time I was considering a .243/300mag and a 6.5/300mag. Not to different from some of the Weatherby magnums. Also thinking about a .17/08.
No the 7.7/06 wouldn't be that hard to do. I shoot .250-.375 groups with it now.

They were complaining about my 6MM/300mag, .17/08, .223/375. The 7.7 is shooting .250-.375 groups already.

Well my point was discussing what you wanted to do to your type 99.

Running a 30-06 finishing reamer to "finish the chamber"
only required "due care" not any super precision...
as it's basically a "finish chambering" job with the additional complication of cutting the throat seperatly.

I was quoted an exorbitant ammount in addition to a rediculous waiting time to do essentially the same work on a barrel that already off the gun.
So I started buying the tools to do the work myself.

And though I could buy all the tools to do the work from Midway for less than the quote (including headspace guages) I've been gradually "sniping" the pieces one at a time off of ebay for less than half the price that I'd pay at Midway.

I draw the line at the finishing reamer for the job, that I'll get new.

And the Barrel vise I'll make myself, I've got
an 8foot length of 1x2 416 stainless steel bar stock
All I need to do is cut it, drill six holes and tap threads into two of them then cut some wood blocks... (Not rocket science)

On your chambering job there is simply no need to remove the barrel from the gun, you only need to lengthen an exsisting chamber.

It may be "gunsmithing", but again it's NOT "Rocket surgery"

Anyone who can discuss wildcatting has the necissary knowledge and decipline, they only lack some of the tools

quite a bit of simple mechanical gunsmithing has a misplaced
"mystique" around it.
It is in the gunsmithing trade's self interest to maintain that mystique.

But as there are fewer and fewer gunsmiths setting up shop
to replace old timers who are retiring and dying
and the smiths who are still out there are charging higher prices and making customers wait longer (MONTHS).

So the natural reaction to this is that many of the simpler jobs are being done by DIY'ers and the greatest symptom of this is the simple fact that gunsmithing tools have become consumer items.

AllanD

See what you mean. I have ran lathes before and cut some close inside stuff. It would be what you said, a completion of the chamber for the 30/06 case with the 7.7 bullet. I just hate it when some of these Gun Smiths who think thier dung don't smell will tell you "it can't be done' especially when someone else is already shooting the same thing. So it was with the 6MM/300. Thanks for the info

After several days reflection I'll say that the final part of the job, the "throating" should be done with a Neck & Throat
reamer.

It's just easier than dealing with the (probable) shorter case life and "softer" neck grip of the bullet you'd have to deal with from thinning the neck by either reaming or
outside neck turning.

That's if you want to do that much work....

AllanD

I have been seriously tinkering with Mauser for the three years or so, I must add my two cents here and say things are never, ever as easy as they appear. And, all the gunsmithing that I perform or hire done I consider to be serious and though it may not be rocket science, it had better damn well be exact.

Furthermore, I would strongly urge you to reconsider wooden blocks as a means for pulling barrels. I just pulled several barrels last weekend off Mausers in excellent condition and I had a hell of a time using a steel vice with aluminum bushings, Kroil, and a heat gun. I don't know if you'll be as successful pulling barrels with wooden blocks as you would with some type of metal. Or, at the very least, mar the finish the least using wooden blocks.

Also, make damned sure you've got the reamer aligned to the bore with the proper pilot and that everything is straight up and not off to one side, lest you could end up with an odd shaped chamber.

Lastly, just as my own personal opinion, I've learned that with tools, you get what you pay for. I've tried to search out good deals, but sometimes they ended up costing me more than if I'd just bought what I'd needed outright.

As always, measure twice and then measure again before cutting. Once you start down this path, its hard to fix. Do be careful.

Blob

I think what Allen is saying as far as the Arisaka go's is pretty much on. The only thing that would be hard to come by, I think, is the throat/neck reamer. It’s just an odd ball. Also Tex21 is right in none of these things ever work out just as planned, at least the first time.

As far as the other stuff goes (.17-300 ultra mags and .20-378 Weatherbys or what ever ) the problem is no one has the reamer and no one is going to by this odd stuff to do just one chamber. I’m sure if you went to the right guy and said “I’ll†buy the reamer. What will you charge to cut the chamber and install said barrel? You would get at least some negotiation going. Try my good friend David Christman. He is a great gun builder and I have seen him, to make the customer happy and give the customer what they want, do some unorthodox things.(never un-safe) How about a 20†.257 Weatherby? That’s just as usless/usefull as a 6mm-404 Jeferry any day. His customer is quit happy and has even sent pictures of some fine groups. Now the fact that my 20†.250 AI is just about as fast don’t really matter does it. You can reach Mr. David at:
David Christman
216 Rundell Loop rd.
Delhi LA.
71232
(318) 878-1395

Tex21

In my limited experience with removing barrels wood holds a heck of a lot better than aluminum or brass. Give it a try, I would suggest walnut.

Shawn

An old crusty mauser from the tropics could be a real SOB to get apart.

So far I'm only anticipating working on remington 700's
and aside from them the only easier action to work on is a Savage 110-11? series rifles which are anything but
difficult to work on...

If you are building a MATCH rifle by all means pay for an expert.

For a rifle that's used to blow up water filled pepsi cans or watermelons paying for a match quality chambering job is, if not "silly", then stupid.

Taking the barrel off of many rifles to make minor chambering changes like originally discussed would simply be borrowing trouble, hey, you have NO IDEA what the original ordinance worker had to do to get the sights
"clocked" correctly..... the threads may be distorted...

Like I said anyone with the patience to be a handloader should have the skills (if not the tools) to do basic gunsmithing

Yeah, an N&T reamer for .311 is going to be ugly, but not
nealy as ugly as a custom reamer for .311-06 would be....

On the wood block barrel vise? Oak is what is usually provided with commercial vises, I can imagin that maple or Cherry could work as well.

Like I said about his specific reaming job it is in essence a "finish chambering" job
Finish chambering is almost NEVER done on a lathe, but is
instead done by hand with the barrel fitted to the action.

So why are the slower readers among us STILL talking about crefully centering on a lathe when even a pro wouldn't be doing it that way??

AllanD

quote:

So why are the slower readers among us STILL talking about crefully centering on a lathe when even a pro wouldn't be doing it that way??

AllanD

Yes, Allan, why are you still talking?

What kinda pro's are you talking about? Those that call themselves pros or those that actually are and know what they are doing?

Some observations:

There is no such thing as a "very good 7.7 jap gun" and therefore it's not worth much effort.

The 7.7 jap chambers that I have seen are oversize for an 06 base. The specs are only .003" over but not the reality.

Wildcats and overbores are fun and cheaper than boats or Corvettes so find out for yourself.

don't ever let my gunsmith hear you accuse him of not having everything perfectly centered up! I don't remember him ever saying anything about hand finishing the chamber.

my recommendation to original poster, do it this way not because it is the best way to do it, but because you don't want to spend any more money on this type of thing that you absolutely have to. I don't know why they wouldn't do a 6.5x300, almost a 264win isn't it? not worth going smaller, but I know gunsmiths that would build you whatever you wanted if you were paying, good idea or not. talk to a different smith if you really want it and are willing to pay.

Red