I recently purchased a pre 64 action (.473 boltface) from the classified here and am speculating on what cartridge I'll have made on it. My first inclinatiion was the 6.506 or it's AI version. Then I read in another post of the 6.5 Gibbs.

Now, if I recall, this is based on the 06 case, with the shoulder moved forward about as much as realisticly possible, correct? Is the body taper straightened out, also? What is the shoulder angle? Would this case function OK in my action, or will serious gunsmithing be involved?

I realize that dies will be expensive. What brass would one start with- 25/06, 270, 280, 30/06? I would think that with the larger calibers, it would be less work to create a false shoulder to fireform with- or am I way off base?

Can anyone here point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Super Bon Bon

I suggest that you find a standard cartridge. Fireforming, necking up, necking down etc. adds nothing in terms of accuracy and little velocity.

If it's a 6.5 mm bore the 6.5/284 has nice Lapua brass for it.

It it's more power at distance for game just pick a larger bore. That's the easy way to increase real effect.

[QUOTE]adds nothing in terms of accuracy and little velocity.QUOTE]

A crocketh of excrement, I say. My .30 Gibbs launches 180 grainers at 3,000 fps - try that with a plain old .30-06. It just ain't gonna happen! Fireforming is no big deal. I have scanned pics on how it's done. Use 280 or 270 brass to form 6.5 Gibbs. For a 100 fps velocity gain, I'd agree it's not worth it, but for 200 fps - that's another matter.

Feeding from a magazine could be an issue, though. Mine is a Ruger #1, so it's not an issue.

MM

I've spent years playing with my own wildcat case. I have chambered it from 6mm to 416. It is a 280 with a 40 deg shoulder moved forward and body taper reduced to the same point as the gibbs. I end up with just a touch more capacity. While I would love to claim some of the high velocities I have seem claimed for the AI or Gibbs what I have found is in most cases that 150fps is easy to gain sometimes a little more. I can often match FACTORY magnum loading but not my own handloaded magnums. I like being different and they make good conversation pieces around the campfire.

Fireforming is no big deal use either a false shoulder, seat the bullet into the lands or I often use the cornmeal method. 270 & 280 brass might be to long for a standard gibbs chamber. You could trim or better yet use a neck reamer to extend the chamber. Allows more neck and capacity. They feed through my rifles with no problem.

Another cheaper option might be the 264 hawk that Z-hat builds.

Having been there and done that I am glad I experianced what fireforming, necking up and necking down along with wildcats is all about.

I am still stuck with three of those turkeys.

It seems that some must touch the hot stove. You tell a kid not to do it and they do it anyway.

In the situation with guns it's all fun however for a while at least.

My buddy has his wildcat .30 Gibbs type for sale. I would not touch it with a 11 foot pole.

The two rifles above will beat any 6.5 mm Gibbs for common sense and value any day.

The one on the left is a Kimber Montana in 270 WSM. It cost $1000 delivered and I would like to know what your going to shoot with a 6.5 Gibbs that this rifle will not do better?

The rifle on the right is a M70 Westerner. It will outperform any 6.5 Gibbs no matter what.

I have $550 into it and it's worth more than that. It's now a 1/2 MOA rifle after some tweaking.

If a 6.5 Gibbs were in a gunshop for sale I would not even pick it up.

I predict that somebody will now post that their 6.5mm Gibbs will outperform my Westerner.

Send me a PM an meet me at the range in CT. I am looking forward to it. I have an extra spotting scope for you to borrow.

I have a 270 Gibbs on a pre-64 action. No feeding modifications needed and no feeding problems. Most sources show the Gibbs with a 35 degree shoulder. The original Gibbs is based on the '06 case. Pacific Tool also makes a reamer with the longer 270 neck.

I have had the best luck with fireforming using corn meal. It is also a lot cheaper.

This originally was a 270 barrel that I had rechambered. I easily get 200 fps over the original 270. Well worth it in my opionion.

Wolfe Publications Wildcat book has a number of articles on the various Gibbs cartridges.

If you want more information send me a PM and will be happy to discuss the Gibbs cartridges

Greetings, I'm not really looking for a magnum cartridge- my action has the standard boltface, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm simply looking at the 6.5 Gibbs as a way of maximizing performance with a minimum of gunsmithing. Whether it will outperform a 270 WSM or 264 Win, well, I could give a crap. That is not the comparison yardstick I am looking at.

That said, Most likely I'll stick with my original inclination and make a 6.5/06, perhaps an AI. Then if I feel the need, I can still step up to the Gibbs at a later date. Then if I REALLY want oomph, I'll buy something else.

Thanks,

Super Bon Bon

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:

The two rifles above will beat any 6.5 mm Gibbs for common sense and value any day.

The one on the left is a Kimber Montana in 270 WSM. It cost $1000 delivered and I would like to know what your going to shoot with a 6.5 Gibbs that this rifle will not do better?

The rifle on the right is a M70 Westerner. It will outperform any 6.5 Gibbs no matter what.

If a 6.5 Gibbs were in a gunshop for sale I would not even pick it up.

I predict that somebody will now post that their 6.5mm Gibbs will outperform my Westerner.

Savage 99

quote:

My buddy has his wildcat .30 Gibbs type for sale.

What is your buddies 30 Gibbs? Contact me gunterr@us.ibm.com

Savage99 is correct that a 6.5 Gibbs will NOT outperform a 264 Win Mag or a 270 WSM.

I have a 6.5 Gibbs and love it. It does require a lot of extra work, for not a heckuva lot of benefit (about 100fps over a 6.5/06 AI). So its not for everyone.

If I had to do it all over again, and with the cartridges available today, I'd probably buy a factory lightweight 270 WSM. If I wanted to spend a few extra bucks to indulge my love of the 6.5 calibre, I'd rebarrel it to 6.5 WSM.

But, I don't regret my choice of 6.5 Gibbs at all. It has taught me a lot about reloading and wildcatting. It drives tacks and shoots like a laser beam of death.

You have to like what I'll call "technical reloading" to really get full enjoyment out of them, however.

To answer Super Candy's questions, the Gibbs:
1. Is a "maximally improved" '06.
2. Minimum case taper
3. 35 deg shoulder
4. Short (0.250") neck
5. uses 30/06 length brass (2.494")

You will be best served by necking down from 270 or 280 and trimming to length.

You need to neck down so that you can create a false shoulder for headspacing during fireforming. With 25/06 brass, you'd have to neck it up to 270 or 280 and then neck it down to 264.

I use 270 brass myself.

Dies are not too expensive. I have RCBS dies, which only cost about $100...quite a bit cheaper than my 470 Mbogo dies!

Cheers,
Canuck

Super

I just got dies for a 6.5x06 Ackley Imp. from Huntington's - way better deal than anywhere else. And they had them in stock - no waiting.

Lee.............

SuperBonBon,

Don't let some discourage you. Given the facts that you are starting with a Pre64 action with the bolt face already what it should be, no barrel (I would not recomend the expense to rechamber a good barrel for 100-200fps gain, especially from 6.5-06 to 6.5-06AI, then to Gibbs, $$$$$), and you will neck down with whatever 6.5/30-06 variant you go with, Gibbs gives you the max performance potential, then why not the Gibbs? It should hold 1-2 more rounds in the magazine than the short mags, and you can use your Pre64 action with the least amount of modifications (I imagine the short mag would be a bear). If you are not going to use the Pre64, then there are better choices. I have a 30Gibbs and have alot of fun with it. I also have a 300WSM (for sale BTW), but would not want to redo an action for the short mags.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:

.......I predict that somebody will now post that their 6.5mm Gibbs will outperform my Westerner.

Send me a PM an meet me at the range in CT. I am looking forward to it. I have an extra spotting scope for you to borrow.

My 6.5 Gibbs will outperform your Westerner

Can you supply the airline ticket and give me a ride from the airport?

But seriously, mine is completely impractical for hunting. If the invitation is still good though, I'd love to pop some 'hogs with you or even shoot at paper from insane distances. I gotta wait 'til I get back from Afghanistan though.

Hi: If you want a 6.5, but not a Magnum...you could look at the Vintage .256 Newton...its a 6.5
actually designed by Charles Newton...based on a
.30-06 case, slightly shorter. Easy to form from
.25-06 new brass.
Mine shoots a 6.5, 129 gr bullet a bit over
3100 fps. Very accurate. Better sectional density than a .270 with the 130 gr. bullet.
Most don't know firearms history...in its day, the .256 newton was preferred by expert riflemen over the .257 Roberts & .270 Win.
It also had enough recognition & popularity, it pushed Winchester to bring out the .270 to compete. Winchester couldn't very well just copy the .30-06 necked to 6.5 as the Newton...so came out with the .30-06 necked to .277", one of the oddest bullet diameter made.
More of a marketing response than any stroke of genius..but the .270 turned out well, so did the .35 Whelan & others based on the .30-06 case.
But, unlike the Gibbs...the .256 Newton is very easy to make brass for, is an outstanding cartridge. Harry McGowen of McGowen Rifle Barrels chambers for it, many others probably do too. RCBS has dies. Its not an extreme 6.5, but one P.O. Ackley called "One of the finest in its class. " Indeed. from a Newton Fan...Best Wishes, Tom

I built a 6.5 Gibbs once. It would launch a 140 grain bullet over 3100 FPS, not too much shy oif the great .264 Win. Mag., and with about 10 grains less powder too, from a 22" barrel! If you are trying to duplicate the .264 Win., the 6.5 Gibbs will do it in a barrel of equal length.

6.5-06AI would be my choice (and not just because I am working with one right now either) Let's look at it like this,..the 06AI can be fireformed while working the load ladder (no barrel life lost) as the expansion won't be a detriment to accuracy. The Gibbs, needs to get the necessary brass from somewhere to make the extra body length, since the shoulder is unsupported, much of the growth comes from the case-head area, unlike the 06AI which with it's shoulder crushed into the chamber and a bullet seated into the lands, will yield it's brass needed for growth from the neck (that's why I trim AFTER fireforming). There is 1 less step in the 06AI IMHO, and it seems to me so far to be quite easy to work with so far.

as far as velocity, you CAN run them to insane levels, but you are just destroying brass. I experimented in my 06AI with 140gr a-max's and loaded wayyyyy toooooo much RL22. I got 3208fps avg for a 5 shot string with a SD of 8fps from my 26" PacNor,..but needless to say those primers could have been pushed in by hand the next time around. I am right in the neighborhood of 3000fps now with outstanding accuracy and mild recoil.



here is me wasting my time trying to run the ladder method at 100 and 150yds. This is the first run of 4831sc and 140gr a-max pills. Take out the horizontle dispersion caused by the shooter and his cheek, and the rifle clearly shows that the 6.5-06AI will be more than accuracte enough for any work you have cut out for it with plenty of power as well.

Hey Deke,
What velocities are you getting with your .30 Gibbs? I have a pristine 7x57 Brno 600. It is nice however, I am getting the "velocity bug". A magnum has it's merits but I like different cartridges. For a while I have been contimplating the 7mm Gibbs

9.3,

For clarification purposes it is important to note that my Gibbs (Mark X commercial mauser, 24" barrel) shoulder was not reamed as far forward as most Gibbs (so I could shoot factory 06 ammo in MY rifle, which I have tested it to do just fine with Rem150grCorLokt). The Gibbs specs I have show a head to shoulder length of 2.145" and my fired cases measure 2.110", meaning I am giving up some case volume and velocity in comparison to a full Gibbs. The Gibbs specs show 71.7gr of water and with R-P 280Rem brass, mine holds 72.4gr, so go figure..... Based on quickload calcs (done by others), pressure signs, PRE measurements, 10+ firing case life, I believe my loads are around 65,000psi. With all that being said, I get 2950fps safely with RL22/Barnes180XLCBT's which is the same as Winchester 300WinMag180grFailsafe ammo. There are some that believe I could get 3000+fps with the 180XLCBT's and Vn560 or MRP, but I can not find these powders locally so have not attempted it.

I have watched this post with interest. In general, I would say that I would not recomend rechambering a perfectly good rifle unless you enjoy technical handloading and hotrodding (which I do). If you are starting from scratch then why not, the full Gibbs will get into the Mag velocities and will do so with less powder/recoil with 1-2 more in the magazine, and if modified properly on the right action it will fire factory ammo in certain chamberings.

Deke.

Can any one part with a 6.5 Gibbs shell ?

quote:

The Gibbs, needs to get the necessary brass from somewhere to make the extra body length, since the shoulder is unsupported, much of the growth comes from the case-head area, unlike the 06AI which with it's shoulder crushed into the chamber and a bullet seated into the lands, will yield it's brass needed for growth from the neck (that's why I trim AFTER fireforming).

Not if you start with a case that has a larger
neck diameter, such as the .35 Whelen, and run it into a 6.5 Gibbs FL die until it will just permit the bolt to close on the case with a crush fit. This is the only proper way to make brass for any Gibbs cartridge from .240 Gibbs up to .338 Gibbs. Granted, some of the smaller diameter ones might need neck turning to get the necks to the proper thickness before fire-forming...

Of course, there is at least one outfit today that sells already-formed Gibbs brass.

E D,..are you referring to a "false shoulder" of some sort arrived at by the thicker neck only being sized a partial way to the neck/shoulder junction? I assume in that case that the false shoulder provides the necessary "compression" to provide solid boltface pressure allowing brass flow to come from the neck and not the case-head area?

El Deguello,

Gotta respectfully disagree that a bigger diameter neck is the only way to go. I own a 30Gibbs and I use the 10gr pistol powder, grits, tissue paper method for my fireforming. I do this with .280Rem brass which is long. After fireforming it is STILL too long and requires trimming immediately. I would imagine this would work fine without any modification from 280Gibbs on up. For Gibbs smaller than .280, default to the "bigger diameter neck" method.

Deke.

short 44
I'll send you a 6.5 Gibbs case. Shoot me an address via e-mail skieter@sover.net

Bon-Bon,

I've got a perfectly good 6.5 Gibbs on a Mauser 98 action. I have never been able to find a set of USED dies for mine these past 6 years. At $123.00 for a set of new FL RCBS Dies from Midway I will just keep looking. I got the rifle, without dies, from the widow at her yard sale. I basically paid for the action alone. Some loaded ammo came with it. I Chronographed it at 3245fps. H-870 powder with 139grn. Norma bullets. There was a paper there telling me to neck up the new 30-06 brass to 35cal and form a false sholder there. And then to shoot a full power load in the rifle to fireform.

I also own a standard 6.5-06 that uses 30-06 brass without inside reaming because the chamber reamer was made that way. My 6.5-06
will shoot the 140 grn sierras at 3130 fps.

Lever Ed

Lever Ed
I got my dies from C&H for about half the price you quoted. I'm very pleased with them, and I'm pretty picky about my dies.

This is a great discussion, it centers on what we wildcatters, experimenters are all about. We like to screw around with stuff, because it is fun. If a guy wants to build a Gibbs, and fire form and trim and ream, he should do that.
Just to add some information, I built a 6.5-06, and am getting 3200fps, with a 120 grain Sierra.

Lever Ed, if you are going to order dies from Dave at C&H, make sure he knows what case you are going to start with. I had him make me a set of 6mm-06 dies, he based them on 30-06 brass, which is fine. I decided to use 25-06 brass, as I thought this would simplify everything, problem is the 25-06 cases won't hold a bullet because they are "thinner" in the neck area. I have to use a 6mm Rem neck sizer with the 25 brass.

Jerry

Jerry,..I got 3208fps avg with 140gr a-max pills in my 26" 8 twist,..but when I could reprime the cases by hand, I figured I might should back off a bit on the RL22 in my 6.5-06AI (grin).

JustC:

I had to adjust my loads down a couple of grains as well. I have been using 54/IMR4831/120 Sierra, originally I used 56 grains, but as it heated up here in Arizona I had to back off a little to eliminate "bolt click". I did not have the case head expansion you mentioned with RL25.

Regards:

Jerry

Thanks TSJ & Jerry for the info about the C&H dies. It was very helpful.
Ed

I can remember the furor over the Gibbs line of cartridges going on 35-40 years ago. The bottom line on these is that they are the classic example of wildcats gone amuck. Yes, users(and the developer) attain incredible performance from the cases. But they do it at probably the highest pressures ever recommended in cartridges. Most of the maximum advertised Gibbs loads are in the the 60,000 psi range.

The statement that a 6.5 Gibbs will equal a 264 WM in the same barrel length is true. However, one will be running 5000-8000 psi higher than the other. Load the 264 to that insane level and it will be a real buttkicker.

Ballistic performance is a function of a very few parameters, the main one of which is case capacity when you are comparing two cartridges in the same bore size. All other things being equal, a larger case will have more ultimate performance than a smaller one. Way too much has been made of short, fat cartridge efficiency in the past few years (mostly by companies designing these in order to sell tens of thousands of expensive new rifles and the ammo to go with them) but that effect will never override the effect of pure case capacity. In the case of the Gibbs line, they don't even benefit from that effect, being relatively long skinny cases.

ArtS,

I also question the short/fat theories, but must admit that I have not studied why some of the short mags are equalling the ballistics of the traditional mags. Pressure is force divided by area. Your larger case for a particular bore idea has merit especially if that larger case has significantly more surface area. Given the same case volume and operating pressure, a longer/skinnier case has more surface area than a short/fat case and will be able to withstand more force (which on average should result in more velocity) than the short/fat case.

You can't compare the 264WM and the 6.5Gibbs based on the same pressures. The 30-06 line of cartidges (270,280,30-06,etc.) are recomended to operate 7,000-10,000psi higher than the 264WM.

I operate my 30Gibbs @ 65,000psi in a commercial M98 with great success. It fires a 180grXLC @ 2950fps through a 24" barrel which is equal to factory loaded 300WM ammunition, and I get case life of 10+. There are lots of cartridges that operate safely in the 60,000+psi range. The 264WM is just not rated that high.

Deke.

I have found, over the years , with a lot of shooting of the 6.5 bullets that the 264 Win Mag is going to be hard to beat. I have made up [and still have] most of the projects ranging from the 6.5/223 to the 264 Thor and have taken game with all of them. I think the 264 Win Mag is one of the best around. As a deer rifle it, and the 6.5/06 and 256 Newton are unsurpassed. I have done the AI on the 6.5/06 and lost my loading flexibility. Not so with the 6.5/243 and the imp. version. If I were going to make up a beautiful old Win 70 action into a "Classic" or [SEMI] Classic I would do the 256 Newton. All the velocity in the world isn`t going to be noticed by an animal at normal[?] hunting ranges. However if you`re going to hunting on the flats for antelope/deer and the shots are long?? Then the added 100-150 fps afforded by the Win Mag will help. But those 6.5 bullets will do the job even if they get there a few micro-seconds later too.

Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
E D,..are you referring to a "false shoulder" of some sort arrived at by the thicker neck only being sized a partial way to the neck/shoulder junction? I assume in that case that the false shoulder provides the necessary "compression" to provide solid boltface pressure allowing brass flow to come from the neck and not the case-head area?

Essentially, yes. This "false shoulder" is formed from the oversize neck diameter. You only are necking down that forward .25" or so of the neck needed to get the chamber to accept the case......

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
El Deguello,

Gotta respectfully disagree that a bigger diameter neck is the only way to go. I own a 30Gibbs and I use the 10gr pistol powder, grits, tissue paper method for my fireforming. I do this with .280Rem brass which is long. After fireforming it is STILL too long and requires trimming immediately. I would imagine this would work fine without any modification from 280Gibbs on up. For Gibbs smaller than .280, default to the "bigger diameter neck" method.

Deke.

Well, you are right of course! Your method works also, and I have done it myself that way a number of times. As a matter of fact, your method is the way I used to make .450 Alaskan cases from .348 Winchester brass. Of course, in this case, since these are rimmed rounds, headspace is not a problem. Your method works perfectly well, BUT I found it messy, what with blowing paper chaff all over the place. Best done outside!

quote:

I can remember the furor over the Gibbs line of cartridges going on 35-40 years ago. The bottom line on these is that they are the classic example of wildcats gone amuck. Yes, users(and the developer) attain incredible performance from the cases. But they do it at probably the highest pressures ever recommended in cartridges. Most of the maximum advertised Gibbs loads are in the the 60,000 psi range.

A good summary of what happened when Rocky Gibbs was building his rifles! What a lot of people never really found out was that Gibbs was an accomplished machinist, and had built himself a copper-crusher type pressure gun with whioch to test his loading data, along with his use of the range/chronographing setup at Speer Bullets to verify actual velocities. It turns out that using the barrel lengths he recommended in barrels he had chambered and fitted, his cartridges actually performed as advertised. To the best of my knowledge, he never PUBLISHED his pressures, but then neither do the major ammo factories!

Rocky claimed that his pressures were low enough that one could get "at least 10" reloadings out of a lot of brass, which seems to me to be such a useful criterion that I have adopted this standard to determine where I should stop adding powder in my reloads for any/all modern calibers.

Once, when writing about his testing of a Gibbs rifle, Jack O'Connor stated something to the effect that Rocky Gibbs was one wildcatter whose designs seemed to have achieved what was claimed for them performance-wise, and that the Gibbs rifle he had tested (a .270 Gibbs??), could be literally opened with one finger after firing - no sticky bolts, etc.