With primers and just about everything else shooting related going up or simply hard to find I am looking at buying a dedicated airgun for Springtime ground squirrel elimination.

It will take the place of my .22 LR out to 50 yards or so. That is about as far as I am able to consistently make a 1"-1.5" head shot under field conditions with a .22 LR.

I have had springers in the past including a Webley way back and a Gamo more recently. I don't care much for the recoil bounce effect of the higher powered rifles so I am looking at PCP guns.

What should I be looking at? My requirements are as follows:

1) Parts and maintenance need to be available in the USA. I don't want to have to send stuff to Europe to get fixed.

2) .22 caliber pellet availability. My old experience with the .177 is that they were terrible in the wind and I want as large a hole as possible in case the shot is slightly off.

3) 900 -1000 fps with a .22 pellet. I think that is a reasonable number for killing small critters. I don't want to go super sonic which is another reason I don't want a .177.

4) Something that isn't very loud if at all possible. I remember having junky CO2 pistols 20 years back and even at 450 fps with a .177 pellet they had a pop to them that 800 fps spring guns didn't. I would imagine that driving a .22 pellet to 900 fps is going to have some noise, but I would like to reduce it as much as possible.

5) Cheaper is better but I am not opposed to spending money if it is worth the cost. I don't care about special wood or anything like that...I want something that works and is reliable. It will be a working gun not a looking gun.

6) Accurate enough that it can consistently put pellet after pellet in a 1.0" circle at 50 yards with no wind. This should be achievable but you all would know better than I. I remember my springers being 1/2" accurate at 25 yards but maybe the groups in my head shrunk after 20 years.

7) Something I can shoot a morning with, fill up in the truck and shoot the afternoon with. I am not "up" on PCP so any and all advice on PCP is welcome. Are we talking SCUBA tanks, pre-charged canisters, or hand pumps or what?

Thanks very much. I have looked at the various online retailers and looked at a couple manufacturers websites but I want to hear it from the AR folks.

I should say that I don't really want to spend that much if I don't have to. I figured that is where the good stuff starts at though.

Check out the Air Force Condor. I have one in 22 cal and it is fast and accurate with Beman Kodiak 21.1 gr pellets.
Wayne

An Airforce would be good. You'd get 40 or so shots worth of air per fill up even at real hi power. It would be worth getting it a silencer as they are quite loud.
Or the Talon is a bit less $

http://www.airforceairguns.com/condor.html

I had a look at them and the performance looks awesome. It seems like they put some thought into what they were trying to accomplish.

That is pretty much exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, but I had no idea existed. Thanks very much to you both for the input.

If you can, find one to have a look at or make sure you can send it back if it's mail order. Some people really hate them.

I know a couple of "Stealth Guns" as AirForce are called here, that are well "tuned" and it would be hard to get a better "walking around" PCP gun for anywhere near as reasonable a cost.
One of my other faves is a mates Air Arms .177 carbine but it was $1500 + 500 in extra bits and work then scope etc. and it only gets 20 spot on shots at 20 fpe.

Used guns are pretty readily available, if you see a good deal is often worth the risk.
And a Stealth is easy to look after as they are so basic.
Mostly PCPs are simple to overhaul if needed. Just remember not to use gun oil where there's HIGH pressure air.

You want a 300 bar ( 4300 pound/square inch I think ) divers bottle, of 12 Liter capacity.
And somewhere that can refill it.

You can use Nitrogen but obviously not Oxygen or any other gas that will go BANG. Not even just a little to perk it up a bit.

Your not too worried about RUST with a Stealth so you could use a "Stirrup" pump but it's like work to fill a Stealth bottle like that.

I am guessing that your rust comment has something to it specifically in regards to PCP airguns. If I think about a air compressor for tools and the like, they need regular draining for moisture or need a moisture trap on the air intake. The SCUBA air is probably dry going in, and the hand pumped air still has all the latent atmospheric moisture in it. The moisture condensates inside the air guns reservoir, and rust begins to form. Pure nitrogen would obviously not have any moisture in it which is why you would want to use it. Is that about right?

Why is a Stealth less worry for rust? Do they have specially treated cylinders or just something like aluminum or stainless steel?

I actually have a Dive shop a couple miles from my house. Never been in there but I will find out if they will charge a cylinder even if I am not a diver. It looks like there is an gun shop that sells Airforce close enough to drive to it and have a look at them too.

Ya there's not much to rust in a Stealth. Actually there's not much of anything in a Stealth.

You can get moisture traps for manual pumps but they aren't too good, way better to use nice dry divers air.

Nitrogen is a bit too dry, you seem to get more problems with seals leaking.
CO2 is too temperature sensitive to get really good consistency for shooting seriously.

A 12 L 300 bar divers bottle will give at least 2000 shots before it needs topping back up. I think the AirForce guns are supposed to fill to 200 bar.
Carbon fiber bottles are lighter and don't usually need testing every 2 or 3 years like steel bottles do. They are used by Firemen.

I remember the issues with CO2 from back in the day. Especially when you shoot several in rapid succession.

So I am going to look for one this week. I like the SS model with the built in moderator. I just don't know about the 800 fps with a .22 pellet. 900 fps is better but going with a longer barrel gives up the SS moderator. 800 fps would likely sail right through a squirrel head at less than 40 yards, but might stop in it at too much more than that. What are your personal range limits on power for hunting? I am used to much more energy a la .22LR, .22 WMR, and .17 HMR.

Any thing over 18 foot pounds in .22 is pretty useful.
Over 24 FPE you start getting a bit more recoil, noise and less shots.

With 40 to 50 fpe guns you may as well use a rimfire.

A mates short barrel Stealth with the moderator on does 28 fpe, has a nice Trigger from "T R Rob" and is not far off a .22 subsonic.
Only thing is that they are single shot but you can reload pretty quick with a bit of practice.

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"However, adjusting the top hat is still quite popular with the owners of standard AirForce rifles (the Talon and the Talon SS). They've discovered that they can adjust the top hat, then use the power-adjustment wheel to fine-tune their work. They aren't adjusting their rifles from low to high power the way many new AirForce owners do. They have found a single accurate pellet (most probably the 15.8-grain JSB Exact dome) and have adjusted the top hat to get the greatest number of shots from a fill of the tank at a power level they like. They may have found two settings on the power wheel that give them two very different velocities for two different kinds of shooting, such as plinking and hunting. And that is all the adjusting they do. That way, they know where their zero is and the gun can remain sighted-in.
There is NO WAY I can tell you all about adjusting the top hat; there are simply too many variables, plus these guns all seem to operate as individuals, so anything I tell you may not work on your rifle. The top hat leaves the factory adjusted to 0.080" for a standard tank and 0.090" for the Condor Hi-Flo tank.

I'll give you an example of what some people do. When I was the technical director at AirForce, we had a customer who discovered that a clearance of 0.068" under his Talon SS top hat, coupled with a certain setting on his power wheel, gave him 80 very uniform shots of .22 caliber Crosman Premiers at 800 f.p.s. If he adjusted to 0.072", the uniformity was destroyed and the total number of shots was bad, as well. He used this very precise top hat clearance and didn't adjust his gun any more.

SavageSam, if you do ANYTHING to the top hat of your Condor, simply open it up as far as it will go and still allow the cocking knob to swing closed into the notch on either side of the cocking slot. That's going to be as much as 0.094" on some guns but less on others. The reason for this is air flow. The Condor is what it is because it allows a lot of air to flow. Restrict the flow by adjusting the top hat smaller than 0.090", and you no longer have a Condor. In fact, when the gun was still new, I used to get returns for low power and many times I found the top hat had been adjusted in, because that was what they were talking about on the forum that day. Adjusting the top hat doesn't void the warranty, but like I said, it also doesn't help a Condor.

One final thought that I may come back to - barrel length. This isn't rocket science. The way pneumatic guns work is that the longer time the pressurized air accelerates the pellet, the faster it will go. The Condor has a 24" barrel, but some new buyers look at all the features on all three AirForce rifles and they decide it would be nice to have the Condor's power in a quiet gun like the SS. They buy an optional 12" .22-caliber barrel and an SS end cap and they make the switch. Lo and behold, their new short-barreled "Condor" now develops only half the power it did with the factory barrel, plus it isn't really that quiet. You can buy a regular Talon and get the same performance, plus a lot more shots for a lot less money.

If you really want a quiet Condor, buy a bloop tube and attach it to the gun. They're all over the internet."

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog...1-universal-air.html

How is the crosman/benjamin PCP guns?

crap, I'd guess without actually seeing one

They're just re-engineered CO2 guns, I think.
That aren't too good to start with.
At under $300 they are probably OK for a kids first PCP.
Till he (or she) gets their hands on an Air Arms or Daystate and wonders why they wasted all that Paper round money on this POS?

http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Be...uder-air-rifle.shtml This is the one I am interested in. The model without the moderator has good reviews.

That one looks nicer than other pics I've seen. And also I thought they were $300 that one is $500.
The air cylinder is nearly as long as the barrel, compressed air is not lite, so full of air that would probably be well front heavy. OK for rested but may be a problem offhand shooting. I see on You Tube the guy demoing one uses shooting sticks.

Pretty much any PCP working correctly is SERIOUSLY accurate.
It's how well made it is that makes the difference. Kind of obvious, but if you've never used nice PCPs you don't have an idea of how much better they actually are.

Best thing is if you can try a couple of different guns before you put down the $500 + whatever other bits you want.

Any Airgun clubs near you?

As I always say, look for used guns as well.
It's a buyers market just now.

Go to Talonairgun.com and ask for owners near your location. You may be able to try one out, you will be amazed.
Wayne

Have you tried www.TalonAirguns.com yet? That is the place to try. They have a forum with reviews and one for custom work. Usually there are advertisers and links to help with your research. I would say a Condor 22 broken in and all adjusted would take care of many thousand critters. Wayne 74 is right about shooters willing to help. And compare ten thousand rounds of your favorite pellets to your rimfire. You can lay away lots of them even stashed if you need it for the future. Good luck. From a PCP shooter. Packrattusnongratus

For those of us that do not have the option of a divers tank.....how are the hand pumps? I think a condor pcp would be a kick, but I can't get air in this town so a pump, hank or otherwise is about the only option.

just curious,

Phil

I went to my local welding supply store and got a bottle of Nitrogen and fill my Condor with that.
Wayne

I have been using a Daystate Harrier for a couple of years now with no problems. 22 cal. I have found that the Crow Magnum pellets are the most accurate and perform well. Largest animals have been crows, grouse and rock chucks.

It is very quiet with a "compensator".

I have been using a hand pump without troubles for the life of the rifle.

I have used this company in the past without any troubles:

www.airgunsofarizona.com/

quote:

or those of us that do not have the option of a divers tank.....how are the hand pumps? I think a condor pcp would be a kick, but I can't get air in this town so a pump, hank or otherwise is about the only option.

You can use other compressed gasses, just not anything that can go BANG. Nitrogen is OK or CO2 like paint ball guns but that's temperature sensitive. But if you live somewhere warm its not too bad.

Probably a bit more Silicon lube in your gun on Nitrogen as it is so dry. I'd guess Nitrogen would be less explosive than compressed air if you got any oil contamination.

Keeping a Talon bottle pumped up by hand is a lot of work if you shoot a lot.

There's a nice new Daystate "Huntsman" out.