New Sako A7 that I have been doing a bbl. seasoning. Through out have had lots of copper fouling, for the most part in the grooves. Am in the process of a comprehensive bbl. stripping albeit the g4ooves still retain copper fouling. I use SC and kroil. Have employed BBS and brush. But, the copper still shows in grooves.
BTW, I have been loading 168 gr. SMK in this 7MM magnum.
Upon completion of bbl. seasoning process will moly projectiles as have been doing so for yrs. with accuracy success. Yes, moly is messy and takes some doing to avoid pitfalls. Works for me.
Any thoughts on the heavy groove fouling? MTG

Gunslick foam works for me. Fill the barrel and leave it sit over night.

Heavy copper fouling? Your barrel needs some polishing as that is not usual these days with the bullets you are using.
And I think it is a mistake to try to remove all fouling from a barrel (I mean light copper color, not heavy fouling). Just some copper color in the grooves means nothing as long as it shoots like you want it to. When you do that you are just opening up the steel pores which will get filled in anyway. Barrels do not need not need to be clean as new.
Big question is, how does it shoot?

Breaking in a barrel has as many variations as there are shooters...many/most just follow the makers recommendations WITHOUT really even thinking of the reasons WHY.

Basically barrel break-in is to knock off the machining bark, EVEN UP THE ID and smooth out the bore. In the old days AND in todays world of high dollar match barrels the maker does the job of smoothing with as lap of some sort...lead, or epoxy impregnated with lapping compound starting with fairly rough "cutting" grit and ending with a "polishing" grit

You can do that your self with a "firelapping" system available in several aftermarket online locations...or you can use a nylon brush 1-2 sizes below your bore size and a cleaning patch rolled around the brush and impregnated with "Flitz" POLISHING compound or starting with 400 grit grinding compound for a few strokes then 600, 800, 1200 grit compound(which are considered 'POLISHING COMPOUNDS and NOT cutting compounds)..don't over do it, you are aiming at "smoothing out the rough spots" nothing more.

I do this for every rifle I build or buy...you can feel the rough spots so give them a few more short strokes while you do your end to end full strokes...just like you clean the bore...stop the stroke just before you exit the bore, pull it back to the chamber and so on. Do about 3-4 strokes then push the brush out, UNSCREW IT, PULL OUT THE ROD AND WIPE IT DOWN, SCREW THE BRUSH BACK ON AND TO IT AGAIN FOR A DOZEN STROKES OR SO...you will feel the roughness diminish...don't go all anal or over analyse this...Flits is a POLISHING compound, VERY fine grit that hardly removes any metal...just copper(maybe) and powder residue...just DON'T use any steel wire brushes.

HOW rough the bore is depends on the way the lands/grooves were make...Cut rifling, hammered, button etc and how much the maker did in the polishing process.

This even works on old military weapons...shooters that have lost their accuracy or have rough throats...sometimes it works great and sometimes not but if it doesn't shoot worth a hoot, you haven't lost anything but a bit of time as it is nothing but a cleaning process you do anyway.

I learned this way back in the day when shooting benchrest and it works today...think about it...WHAT are you doing when you follow a barrel makers recommendations...you are basically just knocking off the bark with a bullet except it takes a little more time and costs components...Flits, patches and brushes and various grits are TOTALLY CHEAP in comparison.

John Barsness wrote an excellent and comprehensive article in Rifle Mag, Nov 2001, #19,8 on lapping barrels if anyone is interested...I changed/added to some of my process after reading it...and there are many articles on "firelapping"...Beartooth has a couple and Gray Beard also I think. John B covers the process completely and gives examples and measurements.

Whether or not to "CLEAN DOWN TO METAL" is a bucket of worms with a few baby copperheads and cottonmouths thrown in for good measure...I only do that when the accuracy falls WAY off, then it can be tough getting it "seasoned" again...just like a good cast iron frying pan. I always save my outlier bullets for that onerous chore.

Good Hunting

I would not fire lap a barrel. I have lead lapped them, but that is for either the low end ones, or cut rifled ones that need smoothing out the tool marks.
I use Douglas barrels, not lapped because they take great pains during the manufacturing process to insure a smooth, uniform, and precise surface. A barrel should never need lapping to make it dimensionally uniform; only to smooth out rough ones.
Ask your self why a maker might want to lap their newly made barrels.

Barrel is clean of copper in the grooves. Took some doing and will continue the seasoning process. But, at this point I will be loading 162 SST moly Hornadys. My process will include Lockease to prep bbl. before firing. Seems like an oxymoron type of seasoning but has worked well in the past. I employed Wipeout to remove the copper in the grooves. Not a fan, but does work. Thank you all for the informative help. MTG

Everyone either loves or hates Wipe-out...it takes a bit of learning and experimenting to get it to not make a mess...I use a 7 oz soda bottle over the end of the barrel with a paper towel stuffed in it and a tight fitting rod guide with a longer piece of tubing to fill the barrel...and very short squirts.

Also...EVERYONE HAS A WIPE-OUT STORY...here's mine told several times on AR...usually in relation to Wipe-out.

I got a fantastic deal on one of the first available and then "shot out" Rem BDL 17 Rem's WAY back near the time Wipe-out first appeared....basically half the cost of a new Rem SA receiver only. The shop owner told me the problem and you could barely see down the barrel OR any rifling. I wanted the SA to build a 222 Rem...he also tossed in one full and one 17 rnd box of 17 Rem ammo. Took it home, tried to clean it but the bore was so tight I couldn't get a rod down it more than 7-8"....the shop guy said it was showing signs of hi pressure and blew a couple of primers when the original owner decided to move it.

Wipe-out had just hit the market so I bought a can and started the process. The first can lasted a couple months and the liquid just kept coming out dark purple...process went something like this - Wipe-out overnight, scrub barrel with a brass brush and a copper cleaner and J&B compound...tried several brands of copper cleaner including all the ammonia types...layer after layer of carbon, powder residue and copper....bought ANOTHER can...SAME PROCESS...used up about 3/4 of second can and the liquid started clearing up until "NO MORE BLUE".

First half of the bore was rough as sandpaper...80 grit. The barrel started shooting ~0.700" 3 shot groups with the factory ammo. Worked up a nice load with 4320 and 25 gr rem bullets...mostly in the 3's and 4's...for 17-18 rounds then it turned into a shotgun. That went on for another 4-500 rounds including a 1/2" muzzle "bob" until I installed a 26" Shilen 17 Rem barrel and then a Douglas air gauged after the Shilen....it needs another barrel at this time. I used Wipe-out throughout this whole process and have a minimum of 3 cans at all times...along with every new "cleaner" that hit the market.

While all this was going on I decided to checkout some of my other hivelo calibers that I "THOUGHT" were clean...Wipe-out pretty much always got them cleaner and I learned the problems of "too clean of a barrel".

I think most shooters have a "cleaning phobia"...either too much or not enough, but if your method keeps your toy shooting straight and suits you then Enjoy...

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Everyone either loves or hates Wipe-out... it takes a bit of learning and experimenting to get it to not make a mess...I use a 7 oz soda bottle over the end of the barrel with a paper towel stuffed in it and a tight fitting rod guide with a longer piece of tubing to fill the barrel...and very short squirts.

Good Hunting

Yeah . . . I learned the hard way!

When I first came into contact with W. O. I read ALL the fine print on the can and ALL the fine print in the brochure and I called the guy because I ALSO had read a bunch of screaming and hollering on those early forums, threats of legal action and so on. Every one of the squalls was address in the information on the can and all the legal threats were covered also. It never ceases to amaze me what we men do...then blame someone else.

W. O. is relatively innocuous, the chemicals just react with copper/powder fouling and rust but the chemical reactant PRODUCTS...the "BLUE/PURPLE sh**"...contains some nasty residues of a mixture of copper/powder reside(a mixture of carbon products) and iron oxides (rust) that WILL RUIN A FINE STOCK FINISH...you just have to be sure the barrel is tilted down SLIGHTLY at the muzzle or the weapon is LEVEL...the draining reactant products is why I use a small bottle with shop rags to catch that sh** and to keep it OUT of the receiver/magazine.

Good Hunting

I tried Gun Slick and did not think it worked that well. It worked okay I guess.

I use sweets and follow the directions on the bottle. Never had it not work on all the guns I have and customers guns. I like the smell of it, call me weird if you want. I finish it with Hoppe's or Shooters Choice, which also smell great.

I usually use the cheap Brownells nylon brushes, once they get gunked up I toss them.

Just broke in a new Lilja barrel (7 mm Weatherby) following my 'smith advice EXACTLY. You may avoid the entire problem down the road with moly, but until then the idea is to micro-fill the variances from absolute smoothness with copper. I was quite impressed that carbon was far greater a barrel's enemy than coppering it up.

The process involves -

1. dry patching out carbon from action to crown, once. (I used a nylon brush with a round patch over it.) A good bore guide is a must.

2. push bronze brush once, same direction. Watch the little cloud of carbon that goes with it! At a tilt/in a cradle with good slope, apply Butch's Bore Shine and make eight back-and-forth strokes, then re-soak and do it again, beginning and ending at the crown.

3. screw the brush off, remove the rod and let it sit while you do some other chore, shoot another gun at the range, etc.

4. using a next bore size down nickel-plated jag and a round patch, push the patch through from action to crown once, then dry patch.


You can do this for maybe up to eight shots, cleaning between each, until the last dry patch seems to all of a sudden "get real easy". Oil and put up if done, other wise fire your groups and re-clean, always pushing carbon away first before going home or doing the cleaning at the range.

All I can say is it has worked a treat for me, even when applied to guns I have used for years.

Cheers!

Barry

I have always used Hoppe's No. 9. I run a bronze brush soaked with the solvent down the bore about three times, then leave it soak overnight. Next day I run the solvent down the bbl on the brush once, then clean the rest of the gun. Next I run patches through the bbl until they come out clean. Haven't had a problem with fowling so far. Knock wood!

Copper streaking in the grooves is not what I would call heavy copper fouling.

In a few of my big bores when new with CUT RIFLED barrels, I would get coils of copper coming out with the brush on the first pass, this died down pretty quick, but was eye opening.
I shoot F-Class, as we strive for the SAME barrel conditions each match, I clean carbon after a weekend of shooting, this can be 300 rounds in extreme cases, normally it’s around 200.
I do NOT clean to remove copper until accuracy drops off, sighters will often tell me this after 3-400 rounds. I use Hoppe’s Benchrest for carbon cleaning, yes it has a copper cleaner in it, but it is slow to work and normally requires an overnight soak to work.
I just run a wet/dry patch until no more black comes out.
The only other time I clean copper is when I am measuring throat erosion to determine if a set-back is in order to keep the jump reasonable. I normally get 3 set-backs before retiring the barrel, but my current barrel has had 4.

Cheers.

How does it shoot?

My 375 H&H has about 2,000 rounds through it and I have spent weeks of work over the last 14 years trying to scrub the copper out of the grooves. I would work on it with every copper cleaner known to man, letting it soak overnight with the safe cleaners, etc.. It would take me 2-3 days of scrubbing and soaking to get the grooves down to bare metal after every range session.

After ten years of this, I finally quit. I clean the barrel with Wipeout leaving it in for 2-3 hours to get all the powder fouling out, then oil it and put it away, with the copper streaks in the grooves.

It still shoots everything sub MOA.

Unless you have a trashy barrel, no need for such things..a little copper wash is not detrimental to a bore in any way..A squeaky clean bore is more likely to rust in many cases as squeaky clean steel is...Much to do is made of gun cleaning, they are not to be used in surgical practices, so not so clean is a good.

More bores have been ruined by over used cleaning rods and dirty patches than by anything I can think off..

Bore lapping fire lapping and such is nothing more than weariong out your barrel, the same thing can be done by shooting, just takes longer, but your barrel will also last longer. Perhaps if your a bench rester this stuff is acceptable but my approach would be to buy a Lothar Walthar barrel, their patented process is the best Ive seen with borescopes, so far.

Use Hoppe #9 to clean the crud out. JB to remove the carbon from the throat. JB Bore Bright for the really stubborn copper. Looking at a .458 bore with copper strips really bothered me! Bore Bright to the rescue!

Let me throw a curve ball here.

You are obviously experienced, so my comments are not intended to offend you or lecture to you. JMHO

* Firstly I would have thought that the most copper is on the lands as that is the part of the rifling that really digs into the bullet. The grooves are only bore riding or just a tad less.
* If it is the grooves that have copper, I suspect it is not heavy fouling (as already suggested by others) and that is just bore riding streaks that your patch has not really rached

After over 15 years of shooting and being pedantic about rifle cleaning, I started using Wipeout and Accelerator 10 years ago. Never looked back. Yes there is a learning curve. Even after 10 years, I just learned a lot again when cleaning my new 470 NE in the last few months!

Use an old soft drink bottle at the muzzle to catch the crap. Use a bore guide at the breach. Saves a lot of PIA mess.

1. Use a carburetor cleaner to remove powder burn carbon - works great. No ammonia to worry about
2. Use a black bristle brush to apply Wipeout and Accelerator and scrub quickly to work up a good foam. Using a patch does not foam up as well. This was the BIG learning from my 470NE.
3. Leave overnight and push through a patch and all the crap comes into the drink bottle. A couple more patches and a bit of CRC or WD40 and it is done.

I have found 4 or 5 layers of carbon and copper on top of each other. Really confused me when I saw it first. An apparently clean bore would suddenly show copper after I removed the carbon! These are from rifles that are cleaned after 50 to 100 shots fired over 4 or 5 range sessions. Not sure if each range session produced a new layer of copper on top of baked on carbon.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Unless you have a trashy barrel, no need for such things..a little copper wash is not detrimental to a bore in any way..A squeaky clean bore is more likely to rust in many cases as squeaky clean steel is...Much to do is made of gun cleaning, they are not to be used in surgical practices, so not so clean is a good.

More bores have been ruined by over used cleaning rods and dirty patches than by anything I can think off..

Bore lapping fire lapping and such is nothing more than weariong out your barrel, the same thing can be done by shooting, just takes longer, but your barrel will also last longer. Perhaps if your a bench rester this stuff is acceptable but my approach would be to buy a Lothar Walthar barrel, their patented process is the best Ive seen with borescopes, so far.

Lother Walther may be decent barrels.....but I don't believe they have ever won a bench rest match...never heard of them winning any match actually... If I am gonna re- barrel a rifle I'm going for the best chance of accuracy I can get.

No barrel has ever been damaged by cleaning, many have been damaged by poor cleaning methods.

.

Maybe you havn't heard of them winning, most bench rester say different...no matter your mind is made up, so is mine.