good work Roger

Ok,it seems to work good. Does it harm a barrel? Be nice if you could run a similar test showing it does not harm steel. John

Harming barrel steel was a concern. I ran extensive tests on 4140 moly and 316 SS. No amount of torture can make me reveal the results. If I publish the results, I know without a dounbt that somebody would push the envelope and ruin a rifle. I will say this: Warthog is safe when used as directed. When jagging it into your barrel, don't leave it in more than 15 minutes. On severe cases of fouling, you can plug the chamber and fill the bore with Warthog and let it soak for 30 to 40 minutes. No harm there. My tests proved that safe. Like anything pushed or used to excess, harm can result. That's why it's imporant to remove Warthog completely and to oil the bore after cleaning.

I am far more comfortable these days with cleaning with Hoppes 9 and a brush followed by a abrasive cleaner like Remingtons on a patch over a brisle brush. The abrasive really gets the stuff out fast.

I have and use the Outers Foul Out for severe fouling.

hey Roger,what withstood more abuse the chrome moly or the ss

How about testing against WipeOut and Montana Extreme stuff.

looks like that warthog solution will screw your barrel

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I am far more comfortable these days with cleaning with Hoppes 9 and a brush followed by a abrasive cleaner like Remingtons on a patch over a brisle brush. The abrasive really gets the stuff out fast.

I have and use the Outers Foul Out for severe fouling.

Here is a test I ran with Hoppes Copper Solvent. Hoppes removes exacrtly zero copper.

http://warthog1134.com/bullet_test_1.htm

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
hey Roger,what withstood more abuse the chrome moly or the ss

Neither. It affected them in different ways.

Again, Warthog is safe, if used as directed. Burt is you slop it down the bore and leave it in for days, you won't like the results. You dump powder in a casing and fire it safely. But if you dump twice the powder in the case and fire it, you'll blow up your rifle. It's the same with bore cleaners designed to remove copper.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
looks like that warthog solution will screw your barrel

If you abuse it, it will, if you use it correctly, it's as safe as anything you can put down your bore.

Interesting test, Warthog obviously will dissolve barnes 140gr x bullets faster than the others but than again I'd bet pure Hydrocloric acid would too. I don't think that your test necessarily means that Warthog is the best bore cleaner. Also most bullets aren't pure copper, they are gilding metal, results might be slightly different with gilding metal. Warthog might just be the best stuff since sliced bread but the jury is still out IMHO.
Hoppe's will remove copper but it does so quite slowly. Leave a light coat of in a barrel and check it a week or two later. The green lines in your barrel are oxidized copper.............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Interesting test, Warthog obviously will dissolve barnes 140gr x bullets faster than the others but than again I'd bet pure Hydrocloric acid would too. I don't think that your test necessarily means that Warthog is the best bore cleaner. Also most bullets aren't pure copper, they are gilding metal, results might be slightly different with gilding metal. Warthog might just be the best stuff since sliced bread but the jury is still out IMHO.
Hoppe's will remove copper but it does so quite slowly. Leave a light coat of in a barrel and check it a week or two later. The green lines in your barrel are oxidized copper.............DJ

Wait a week or two? Not very practicle for a varmint hunter that cooks off hundreds of rounds a day and needs to clean frequently.

Roger, Of course it's not very practicle. That's why I use other stuff for copper. I was just pointing out that it does remove it albeit slowly...................DJ

Judging by the look of that bullet(the one wasted by Warthog) i'd be scared as hell to put that in my barrel.I think your test backfired Roger.I think smart shooters want to clean their barrels without burning the metal.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Judging by the look of that bullet(the one wasted by Warthog) i'd be scared as hell to put that in my barrel.I think your test backfired Roger.I think smart shooters want to clean their barrels without burning the metal.

Warthog won’t burn the metal. Not if you follow the instructions.

I have a lot of money in a custom stocked rifle built on a Model 70 short action magnum. (270 WSM.) It’s my pride and joy and it’s very accurate. I use Warthog on this rifle without any damage, and I use it on all of my other rifles as well.

Before testing it on any rifles, I tested Warthog on the two most popular barrel steels, 4140 molly steel and 316 stainless steel. I put Warthog on the metal and left it. Warthog itself will not attack steel. The chemistry is wrong. If left in a bore, Warthog attracts water from the atmosphere and that water attacks the metal. Call it oxidation if you want it fancy, or call it rust, if you want it down and dirty.

One of the active ingredients in Warthog oxidizes copper almost on contact. The blue stain on the patch coming out of your barrel is that oxidation. Warthog oxidizes copper on contact, but not steel. It has to attract water for that to take place. Warthog will not damage your bore, IF IT’S USED AS DIRECTED. Misuse it or abuse it, and it will kill your barrel just like an overdose of aspirin will kill you. If you have a headache, you take 2 aspirin and the headache goes away. If you take a whole bottle of aspirin, you die. It's the same with bore cleaner. It has to dissolve copper. In order to dissolve copper fouling, it has to be in the barrel and in contact with the copper and the barrel metal. My test shows that Warthog dissolves copper. The test also shows that some of the most popular copper solvents on the market don't touch copper, and if they do, they don't do much to copper.

The question is how Warthog reacts to steel. Obviously it will react. The key is how it reacts and the speed it reacts. You can take an oxyacetylene torch to a barrel and do some real damage, if you hold the flame on the metal long enough. Yet you create the same type of flame with the same temperature when you fire a cartridge. It’s a matter of proportion. You can safely use Warthog, IF YOU FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS.

The key to getting copper out of a bore is attacking the copper but leaving the bore metal in place. Warthog does that, if USED AS DIRECTED.

It’s a misconception to think that Hoppes left in the barrel for a week or two creates green streaks of copper oxide. I don’t doubt that the copper oxide is there, but leaving copper exposed to the atmosphere will also create green copper oxide, AKA, rust. How fast the green develops depends on the humidity. If you doubt that, take a look at the Statue of Liberty. She’s copper. The green is copper exposed to the elements. The same thing will happen to any copper left in a bore and stored without any cleaner or oil in the bore. It’s a matter of atmospheric conditions and time.

I didn’t just come up with Warthog out of the clear blue. I’ve had a lifetime of experience using and maintaining firearms, not just as recreation, but professionally. My first professional experience came with the base armorer at Fort Riley Kansas back when the army switched from the M-1 to the M-14. My job was to clean the bores of M-14s and M-60s used in live fire exercises. After my military service, I spent 22 years in law enforcement. Firearms were an intricate part of my professional career. I hated cleaning them. I’d rather have a root canal. About 4 years ago I began researching better ways to clean bores. I came up with some wild mechanical designs. I won’t go into them since one or two may be viable. I personally used Barnes CR-10, Sweets, and Copper Melt before I came up with what turned into Warthog. Warthog works better and faster than those products. We have this one product for sale. The only plan we have for possible expansion is adding jags that stand up to Warthog, and a stronger version of Warthog formulated for varmint hunters that shoot hundreds of rounds a day, and for law enforcement officers that shoot and clean machineguns. I don’t see any market other than that. And it’s going to cost a lot but it does the job. I’m testing it on M-16s with thousands of rounds through them.

The reply above about hydrochloric acid is silly. If it’s a contest to destroy a barrel, I can come up with a hundred ways of doing it. Warthog, like a firearm, will only do the damage caused by the man using it, or abusing it. That makes Warthog as safe, or as dangerous as the user. Again, follow the instruction, just like a doctor instructs you in the use of potentially dangerous medications, medications that can save your life, if used properly, or can kill you, if you misuse them.

Roger,can you explain the differences between copper solvents in terms of their chemical compostion,including Warthog.?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Roger,can you explain the differences between copper solvents in terms of their chemical compostion,including Warthog.?

I don't care what's in the solvents I tested. What matters is some of them didn't work, and the rest worked poorly.

As far as the chemical compositon of Warthog, my partner and I agree that you'd probably have better luck getting Colonel Sanders to give you the 11 spices and herbs in his secret Kentucky Fried Chicken, or getting Coka Cola to release thier secret formula to you. Warthog is ammonia based, but the rest is a Trade secret.

I will say this as plain as I can. Any man that can read simple instructions in English, can use Warthog in perfect safety.

Copper Test 2 Post

I did the tests requested on Montana Extreme 50 BMG, Wipe Out, and Bore Tech Eliminator.

I also ran a test to see if Warthog would cut lead. It doesn’t cut lead and we don’t make that claim. It simply won’t clean lead out a barrel. I’m going to look into that after the hunting season, mostly out of curiosity.

I ordered Montana Extreme 50 BMG, Wipe Out, and Bore Tech Eliminator from Mid South Shooters Supply. I ran the tests the same way I tested in initial solvents, with one exception. I used bullets from the same lot, however I did not have enough 140 grain Barnes X bullets, so I used bullets that weighed 139.7 grains on my RCBS digital. I opened the bottles of Montana Extreme 50 BMG and Bore Tech Eliminator and dropped the bullets into the solvent and left them in for 24 hours. I put the Wipe-Out down a clear plastic tube in something that resembles putting it down a rifle bore.

Frankly, after hearing what I hear about these cleaners, I approached testing these 3 cleaners with apprehension. It was a misplaced apprehension. The tests speak for themselves.

The Results:

Montana Extreme 50 BMG
139.7 Grains Before the test.
139.7 Grains After the test.
000.0 Grains lost.

Wipe-Out
139.7 Grains Before the test.
139.6 Grains After the test.
000.1 Grain Lost.
Biggest problem with Wipe-Out: The foam melts way into a thin liquid and gravity forces that thin liquid to pool at the lowest point. The foam seems like a good idea but I have a feeling that users are only getting half a cleaning because of the pooling noted, and at the rate it cuts copper, not a very good cleaning.

Bore Tech Eliminator
139.7 Grains Before the test.
139.7 Grains After the test.
000.0 Grains lost.

You can go here to have a look at the details of the test. The new test results are near the bottom of the page. Scroll down the page to the new test.

http://warthog1134.com/bullet_test_1.htm

Anyone can do these tests. Get some of the products in these tests, drop the bullet of your choice in a bottle of the stuff, or in the case of Wipe-Out, try to keep the stuff on the bullet, and then compare the weight of the bullet before and after. Am I wrong to believe that a copper cutter ought to cut copper, if the label says it cuts copper? Most of the products I tested don’t cut copper, and those that do, cut it poorly and very slowly.

with a name like warthog people wouldn't buy it even if it was good

RogerK, what your tests prove is that Warthog dissolves X-bullets faster. How that relates to how well it clean barrels is unclear.
I haven't tried Warthog yet and it indeed might be great stuff, but if you think that Wipe-Out doesn't clean barrels well, you're wrong............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
RogerK, what your tests prove is that Warthog dissolves X-bullets faster. How that relates to how well it clean barrels is unclear.
I haven't tried Warthog yet and it indeed might be great stuff, but if you think that Wipe-Out doesn't clean barrels well, you're wrong............DJ

Getting Wipe-Out in place and keeping it in place proved to be a problem. The tranparent tube showed that it didn't cover the inside surface of my makeshift device 100%. Since the device was tranparent, I was able to see it fade from a foam to liquid and settle at the lower end and in fact leave what would have been a fouled bore devoid of any cleaner. Teh instruction also said 60 minutes, and then anoother 60 minutes, and then overnight, if still not clean. For me, that's too much time wasted, time I can use shooting.

Okay, Barnes bullets are copper and Warthog dissolves copper. If you can't figure out how that relates to cleaning copper out of a bore, you are beyond any help and advice I can give you.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
with a name like warthog people wouldn't buy it even if it was good

I'll clue you. It's even worse than that. The product's full name is Warthog 1134. If you write 1134 on a piece of paper and hold it up to a mirror, it spells out hell, hence, the slogan, "It's Hell on Fouling."

quote:

Originally posted by RogerK:

Okay, Barnes bullets are copper and Warthog dissolves copper. If you can't figure out how that relates to cleaning copper out of a bore, you are beyond any help and advice I can give you.

You are missing a couple points.
First of all your tests in a jar don't necessarily directly equate with a barrel.
Second X-bullets are pure copper, most bullets are made of guilding metal not pure copper so results may or may not be the same.
Third some of the copper cleaning type solvents don't work well on normal fouling. You need to clean the fouling out and then use a different solution to clean the copper out. Wipe-Out is particularly good because it not only cleans the fouling including Moly but it will then also get the copper. Your test here only shows that it dissolves pure copper and not if it also cleans powder fouling, Moly and guilding metal.

Also understand that I'm not trying to say your stuff isn't good. It may be the most fantastic bore cleaner ever. I can't say yea or nay because I've not used it. I can say however that Wipe-Out is really good stuff because I've used a bunch of it and it's by far the best stuff I've ever used...................DJ

Explain how Warthog disolvess copper outside of a gun barrel, but won't do it inside a gun barrel?

Guiling metal is a 5% tin, attomic symbol Sn, and 95% copper, atomic number Cu. If a copper cutting solvent dissolves pure copper, what process and chemical formulation protects that copper with the addition of tin?

Warthog dissolves brass jags. That's a copper based alloy. Wet a patch with Warthog and rub it over any bullet jacket with a copper base and the patch turnes blue almost instantly.

How do you explain that?

How do you draw conclusions without having tried both products?

Roger,wouldn't the solvent in the form of a gel be more efficient in the removal of copper? I think it might stick to the entire bore and not just the bottom part.It also may not get into the pores as easily as a liquid and be easier to remove once it has done its job.There is something about high strenghth solvents in a liquid form that I don't trust.

quote:

Originally posted by RogerK:

How do you draw conclusions without having tried both products?

Obviously you can't and is why I haven't.

"Also understand that I'm not trying to say your stuff isn't good. It may be the most fantastic bore cleaner ever. I can't say yea or nay because I've not used it."


One of the reasons I haven't tried it is the following. Your instructions:

Do not get Warthog on the stock or finish of your firearm.



Warthog 1134 Cleaning Instructions:



ALWAYS USE A BORE GUIDE.

Wrap a patch around a loose fitting bore brush.

Wet patch with Warthog.

Run wet patch through the bore 10-12 times.

Discard the patch.

Repeat above sequence 3 or 4 times, depending on the fouling.

Run a dry patch through the bore.

Run a clean patch wet with Warthog through the bore.

Let Warthog work for 5 to minutes.

Run a dry patch through the bore.

Repeat above sequence until a wet patch comes out clean.***

Once clean, remove all traces of Warthog from the barrel.

Before storing the firearm, oil the barrel with a quality gun oil.



For major fouling, plug the chamber with a stopper.

Fill the bore to the top with Warthog.

Leave Warthog in the barrel 45 minutes.

Empty Warthog out of the bore.

Clean as instructed above.





The cleaning regimen that I use with Wipe-Out basically involves about 1/3 the amount of brush strokes and therefore time and effort that your instructions recommend. Also you can leave Wipe-Out in your barrel overnight without worry of your barrel rusting. I don't normally do that but sometimes with 2 kids something comes up and you have to leave your rifle cleaning for something else and I prefer to have something that I don't have to worry about leaving in my barrel.
Please don't think that I'm trying to pick on your product. I've tried most of the cleaners on the market and will buy whatever works the best for me. I'm giving you honest critique's of what my thinking is so that you might see what a potential customer might be thinking....................DJ

Roger,
how do you stop "warthog" from slopping to the bottom of the barrel as you described wipeout did after 15 minutes.
If your firearm is reasonably clean then 15 minutes of wipeout is enough.
I have no Doubt that in your test that warthog dissolved copper at an alarming rate, the removal of copper is not always by dissolving the residue left by the bullet, but by the solvents ability to release the copper fron the parent material..
Wipeout also has a sister product called accelerator which reduces the whole process considerably..
And don't forget wipeout is Brushless..

regards
griff

Have you tried the stuff on 416R S.S. which most of the S.S. barrels that I know of are made of? It's not cheap either is it.
I shouldn't refer to it as cheap, "inexpensive"

That is a lot of cleaning to do between relays at a match.

Send out a 1/2 ounce bottle or so and let the guys try it for themselves.

Roger, any answer on the 416 stainless?

GUESS NOT

These bullet-solvent tests are fine, but I can tell you that after using a bore scope, the following solvents clean the copper out just fine, making the handlapped bores look new:

1) Montana Extreme BMG
2) WipeOut
3) Shooters Choice/Kroil (mix)-but takes alot of work.
4) KG system
5) Butches Bore Shine

I've used all of these followed by a Hawkeye scope and have only seen traces of copper left after the Shooters Choice/Kroil mix. Even so, it didn't matter because the rifle still shot very well. Bores can get TOO clean, especially factory bbls.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Roger, any answer on the 416 stainless?

GUESS NOT

Sorry, I was gone on a moose hunt. That's why no answer.

I tried it on 416 without any harm. It was 416 SS, and 4140 moly. We also ran some corrosion tests on 316 SS.

I've sent out a sample bottles. I offered one to a participant on this board before I arrived here at this post a few minutes ago.

Look at this post at another site. I don't know this guy. He ordered a bottle, paid for it, and did the experiments on his own and posted the results without my knowledge. Not that I'd object.

http://precisionlongrangehunter.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6481005821/m/6801083881

PM me your address. I'll send you a sample on one condition, that you use your best cleaner on a your most fouled bore, and then follow up that cleaner with Warthog. Wrap a patch around an undersized bore brush. I use a .22 brush in .270/7mm bores. A .270 brush works with .30 cal bore. No bronze shank on the brush. Warthog will eat it.

There is an Excedrin commercial on television in which a company official says if you're not going to follow instructions on using their product, they'd rather you didn't buy their product. Same here. I can tell all who will read this, that tests we ran for corrosion on just about every product on the market, showed that there were all safe to use. Our product is safe. But you have to follow the instructions. There is no manufaturer of any bore cleaner on the market that will condone misuse of thier product.

Forgot to add: I'm going to be pheasant hunting for the next 2 weeks. I'll try to check in here to get the PM with your address and then get the sample off.

Forget the PM. I've been having trouble with that. E-mail me at rogerk@warthog1134.com.

roger, I got the bottle of your stuff today, and will post what I think of it as soon as I get a chance to shoot. Thanks.

I'm not at all sorry that it took so long. We give ample warning on our web site that servive might be interrupted during the hunting season, especially the deer season, which opens tomorrow. If it isn't fun, I refuse to do it.

I think you'll be surprised at how well the stuff works.

Roger, I havn't had a chance to clean a gun yet, but as you said it desolves the hell out of a bullet. Just what percent ammonia do you use in that stuff and how much of it? Use in a well ventilated area is an understatement. I have no gripe with how long it took getting here if your last post was to me. I thank you again and am waiting to be able to shoot and try it in a barrel.

Last post was to you. I've been hunting hard, and now after recovering from some minor toe surgery, am getting ready for the ice fishing season.

Warthog does eat copper. No doubt about that. How it does the job is a trade secret. It's ammonia and a few secret ingredients that optimze the way Warthog attacks copper. Clean a few bores. I'm sure you'll agree.

RogerK

Roger--thanks for the return phone call last evening. the product that you manufacture--WARTHOG 1134 is without a doubt a class act and does a superb job of removing copper.

most of the bu-- sh-- that i have read on this forum about your product is from over educated under intelligent dumb a----. there will always be this type of jerk.

just keep making your product and let the dumb a---- stroke their bores with something.

there will always be people who think they know all the answers but, they don't half the questions.

have a good fishing season. --two canoes