I am on my 3rd 24hr treatment with Wipe Out. Rem 700 CDL 257 Roberts. I have slow fired 30 rounds(Nosler Custom 120gr Partitions)through this rifle. I bought it new. I have never had a bore foul this badly so quickly. Is this common?

Andy B

Nope! That barrel is bad!

How does it shoot?

Not necessarily "bad"...just rough...sometimes it takes 50-200 rounds to break in a new or rough barrel...and more than 3 applications of Wipe Out.

On very badly fouled barrels I've left the Wipe-out in for 2-3 days before running a clean patch through...Wipeout keeps on working as long as it's in contact with "fouling" by products...

How's the accuracy??? If the accuracy exceeds the factory specs with the ammo they test with then they will warrantee most of the time...it not...no way...Call Rem and talk to them and see what they will do...but CALL before you do anything other than "normal" cleaning...NO LAPPING or they will deny any claims.

Just HOW blue are the patches coming out???

There are many ways to smooth up a rough barrel...give it to a gunsmith to lap...lap it yourself - "Fire lapping" products are available at Midway, Brownells etc...use JB bore paste to REALLY clean it and lap somewhat...use Flitz, OSSO or Simichrome to fine polish using a nylon brush with a coated patch and about 50 strokes then clean, and shoot a couple 5 rnd groups, repeat as necessary. I've had several "cheap" barrels from barrel makes in years past that were like this...unless they were hand lapped, button rifled, etc....not so much today...even the "cheap" barrels are hand/machine lapped nowadays. I use all these products and even used 400 grit valve grinding compound on old military weapons to get through the carbon fouling...10-20 strokes, clean, inspect fire a few rounds, use W.O., 10-20 more strokes...NO MORE...anything larger than 600 grit CUTS METAL...600 and smaller polishes...BE CAREFUL and go slowly,


Depending on how rough the barrel is this process might take a while. I have a 98 Mauser that started out so bad I couldn't see much rifling and barely kept within a pie plate at 100 yds...took over a month of daily "scrubbing" with JB, W.O. at night, etc, before it was clean enough to stay within ~3" at 100 off the bench with Hornady 150 gr SP's...it stays by the back door.

Lots of good information on AR if you do a search...rough barrels are nothing new and lots of very good "How to" information is posted...

LUCK

Yes, get some J&B bore paste

JB's down to bare metal, then apply Dyna Bore Coat. Future cleaning will take a fraction of the time.

Question is, how valuable is your time? Everything mentioned involves time and not guaranteed results.

A new barrel doesn't guarantee results either!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
A new barrel doesn't guarantee results either!

That is true. Well I truly hope it works out for you.

I use both Wipeout and Patch Out together for quicker cleaning. I run two patches of Patch Out through the bore immediately followed by Wipeout. Then let it sit. I have found it helps to rotate the rifle for heavily fouled barrels. By rotate I mean, after a couple hours lay the rifle on it's other side so the liquid can work on the other side of the barrel. Gravity pulls the liquid to one side of the barrel and periodically rotating the rifle gives the opposite side of the barrel some dwell time with the Patch Out and Wipeout to remove the fouling. Hopefully, your barrel will smooth out with time as more rounds go through it.

I have been using Gunslick Foam Bore Cleaner and haven't had any of the problems documented on this thread. Fill the bore with it, let stand for 20 to 30 minutes and then run a couple of dry patches through the bore or bores. If the barrels are really badly copper fouled, it might take a second application. So far, I haven't needed a third.

465H&H

Andy,
I only wait as long as it takes the foam to dissolve. Maybe a couple of hours. ON a couple of barrels I have used the Wipe Out accelerator.

I think you'd do better by trying to clean and reapply when the foam disappears.

The foam is what helps spread the fluid component evenly in the barrel...you are wasting the cleaning power of the chemicals in the fluid if you patch it out too soon. Just like the Energizer Rabbit the fluid keeps on working and working and working as long as there is ANY reaction going on.

Rotating the rifle 90° DOES HELP keep the fluid in contact as gravity does act on the fluid.

I level my rifles horizontally and rotate every few hours except overnight, use Patch-out and the nice lemony smelling accelerator, a nylon brush and jag if I can find one for the caliber otherwise a brass jag and swish it in paint thinner to clean between uses.

I still get a slight bluish tinge on the inside of the patch from the Patch-out's chemical action even when the barrel is squeaky clean.

The one and only Remington 700 I will ever own, new, and in .243, was the same way. I couldn't believe how badly it fouled. Sold to someone who wanted the action.

I applied Accelerator and went one more round of Wipe Out. Must have got it all last time. Patches came out clean. I will be shooting 70gr ESP Raptors from here forward.

Has anyone tried the Tubbs bullets with the mild abrasive to smooth the barrel? I've always wondered it works.

If you barrel is fouling excessively, then it needs lapping, not cleaning. I use diamond bore lap from Corbins, on a patch. If your barrel is really bad, which is rare, you will need a proper lead lap.
Fire lapping with bullets; No.
And I have the theory that barrels need seasoning like cast iron frying pans; I never clean them back to bare steel as you will just have to fire a few rounds to fill the pores back up.

Since I started using Wipeout the routine goes:
1) No brushes, patches only
2) Accelerator until patch comes out clean
3) Wipeout until patch comes out clean
4) Leave Wipeout in bore 8-12 hours
5) Repeat until first patch comes out clean
6) If the bore is not squeaky clean after 3 or
4 cycles then it's the BARREL.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Has anyone tried the Tubbs bullets with the mild abrasive to smooth the barrel? I've always wondered it works.

It plays hell with the throat of your barrel.

I've often wondered how many of those Schneider barrels Tubbs uses, get the "fire-lapping" treatment.

I am a firm believer of Wipe-Out, and Patch Out and accelerator. Their brass cleaner "Brass Monkey" is also awesome. On cleaning your barrel.
1.) If patch is black it's still powder.
2.) If patch is blue it's still copper.
3.) If patch is brown it's carbon.
Keep cleaning, it will come clean.
Senator

Probably best to run about 200 rounds thru it to start with..

But the strongest cleaner out there is the old bench rest stuff the oldtimers used and still do in some cases..one quart of commercial Amonia and one cup of Hydrogen Peroxide, some of them tossed a penny or bullet in the mix to activate it and turn the solution blue..TheY called it BluE Goop and it works..Don't leave it in the barrel more than 20 minutes and be sure to wipe it dry, then clean the bore with Hoppes or whatever, wipe it dry and swab the bore liberally with WD-40 or such..Used properly its fine, used improperly and it will eat your barrel..I always keep a quart of it in my shop for those old guns I work on..

Another option that seems to be working is the new powders like CFE 223, that cleans bores as you shoot..Not sure how it would work on a really bad bore but it sure works on my 222, 6x45, and 250-3000.

There was a time when match shooters would use a product called "Bon Ami" and a bucket of water to clean, burnish, the bore of their rifles. The advertisement logo was "barely scratch the surface..." meaning that it was more of a metal polish than a harsh abrasive substance. Have used it on neglected '03's, 98's, etc. and doing so will bring out some pretty nasty looking "stuff." Really tough bores used the material with wire brush and then a so called "mop" and finished with drying and oiling bore. The process did help quite a bit and bores appeared very clean and shot better. Just a suggestion.

If you have access to a bore scope use it. The barrel could be defective. If so send it back for replacement.

I bought a new M700 223 varmint in about 1990. The barrel was junk from the factory. The surface of the bore had hills and valleys along the length of it. Like waves on a lake. It appeared to me, that the bore reamer had a chip in it, leaving a rough surface. The rifling button was then run over the rough hole.

That barrel never shot well. I ended up replacing the barrel with a match grade Pac-Nor. That one was bug hole accurate.

I am, as we speak, paining over buying a barrel blank to replace the barrel on a Browning 1886. The chamber reamer was run in cockeyed. Some outfits use a drill press type operation to chamber barrels, TC and apparently Browning. My point is that even big name makers sometimes turn out junk.

Big gun makers are in business to make money. I don't begrudge that. Be aware that the workers are often not gun people. They don't necessarily take pride in what they make. For the company the bottom line is price and sales. Quality is irrelevant, unless it affects sales. Quality control can be spotty.

Scope it....

The most important thing is how it shoots.The best barrel I ever owned was a Remington.It fouled like any other factory barrel.

If the gun shoots accurately then don't worry about it!! A couple of hundred rounds cures a lot of ills.

Some folks also use brass brushes and can't get a clean patch, go figure DUH!

More bores are ruined by cleaning than shooting and that's a fact..Cleaning rods and their owners are the culprit in many cases...

On very rare occasions you need a new barrel, buy a Lothar Walthar is my suggestion.....

I have used Bon Ami, is it no longer made? Have not used it in quite some time!...but,if so then clean a barrel with hot soapy detergent of any kind in hot water with a nylon brush and patches, and rinse with scalding hot water..scalding hot water dries almost immediately. but run some dry pathes through it anyway, and don't grab the barrel, it will be hotter n hell...

About as good a cleaner as their is btw..oil the good after such a treatment..it works, and you don't have to pay $4.00 a can for cleaner.

I make a gallon of cleaner at a time. About a $20 investment.
And yeah, it works. I do own a bore scope.

Then we have those poor souls that can't get a bore clean using Wipe Out or anything else..QUIT USING A BRASS BRUSH...

Ray,
You can quit using your brass brush, but I won't. We each have our own way.

Yes, I have used the Tubbs coated bullets to smooth up a barrel. They work, I was pleased with the results, they are just about like fire-lapping. The more abrasive bullets will increase the diameter of your bore so unless it's really bad I'd suggest not using those. IIRC that coincides with David's instructions supplied with the bullets.
I don't believe the finer grit bullets do anything that can't be done with JB Bore Compound. JB just takes a lot more time and elbow grease.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Michalski:
Since I started using Wipeout the routine goes:
1) No brushes, patches only
2) Accelerator until patch comes out clean
3) Wipeout until patch comes out clean
4) Leave Wipeout in bore 8-12 hours
5) Repeat until first patch comes out clean
6) If the bore is not squeaky clean after 3 or
4 cycles then it's the BARREL.

NO, its not the barrel - it is because you did not use a brass brush.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Then we have those poor souls that can't get a bore clean using Wipe Out or anything else..QUIT USING A BRASS BRUSH...

And you will leave copper in the groove corners.

Butch Lambert,
Wipe out and its ilk, are copper removers, and they turn patches blue when they work on fouling (copper fouling is left in the bore by bullets) therefore if you soak a brass brush in Wipe Out it turns the patch blue no matter how clean the bore is, and btw it eats your brass or copper brushes up like dog eats biscuits! but like you said, you certainly have the option to use them. no argument here...

But, if one does not use Wipe Out or such, the crux of this thread, then brass brushes are fine.

Ray Atkinson:
You are absolutely correct. Wipe Out states if you are going to brush the bore use a nylon brush, period.
Senator

Ray,
Back in the day before mixing my own bore cleaner, I used Wipeout. It was several years ago. It was recommended to use mineral spirits as an accelerator at that time. I did use a bronze brush. I cleaned the brush with Brake Clean after each cleaning session. That was after each group during a match. I used a brush a day when shooting matches. Even quality brushes are inexpensive.

Just some thoughts:

My Winchester M70 375 H&H copper fouls horribly and still shoots well under an inch, clean or dirty.

Wipeout takes 2-3 applications after only a dozen or so TSX bullets. I apply the foam and let it sit. After a couple of hours I rotate the gun 90 degrees, then two hours later I rotate it 180 degrees.

I use nylon brushes to scrub the barrel after it soaks.

Butch,
My post was ment to state the brass/copper brush would turn the patch blue, nothing more. I was under the impression that some folks were wondering why they could not get a clean patch and that they might be using a brass brush, and the use of a nylon might solve the problem..It appears that I misinterpreted your post.

I have no doubt brass brushes work, been using them for years, but I do prefer Nylon brushes with copper removing solvents..

I also mix my own bore cleanter, mainly Commercial ammonia, and Hydrogen peroxide and a copper penny...Called "Blue Goop" by the old time benchresters, strong stuff to be used intelligently..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Butch,
My post was ment to state the brass/copper brush would turn the patch blue, nothing more. I was under the impression that some folks were wondering why they could not get a clean patch and that they might be using a brass brush, and the use of a nylon might solve the problem..It appears that I misinterpreted your post.

I have no doubt brass brushes work, been using them for years, but I do prefer Nylon brushes with copper removing solvents..

I also mix my own bore cleanter, mainly Commercial ammonia, and Hydrogen peroxide and a copper penny...Called "Blue Goop" by the old time benchresters, strong stuff to be used intelligently..

Not a problem.
Will you be at DSC again this year?

I installed an "el cheapo" Midway Adams & Bennett barrel on a 98 action I had laying around.
(I'm pretty sure they were made by E.R. Shaw exclusively for Midway)

Synthetic stock, Glassed in, Timney trigger, and it shot like crap and fouled like you can't believe.

I would use Patch-out while still at the range and the barrel still warm, but it still took several wipe-out applications to get it clean.. 600 round later, the groups have tightened up, and I can usually get by with the Patch-out depending on what bullets I'm using.

Give it a few hundred rounds to "break in", I'm betting it will improve.