It had been a while since I cleaned my rifle, a Blaser R93, other than to put a dry patch through it to keep the bore clear. So some weeks back I took to it with the bronze brush, Butches Bore Shine and a few other things as well. It is amazing the amount of dirt that can hide in a bore that looks clean.

Now this rifle has been given a good cleaning on a regular basis in the past and I wasn't aware of any significant problems, it was usually cleaned every 20 - 40 rounds. The first few rounds out afterwards were always a bit off the mark but beyond that it was all good to go. This time however it took me 50 rounds before the rifle would settle down. It didn't take long to start shooting reasonable groups, but the groups kept moving around. I thought I had a scope problem or similar as I'd get 5 shots in a group, adjust the scope to put the group where I wanted it and get another 5 shot group somewhere I didn't expect it. After about 50 rounds it started to settle down and I shot 5 groups of 3 rounds which all went to the same place. The scope adjustments are also working correctly so I don't think I have a problem there.

I think that will be the last time I'm cleaning that rifle! What do others who have rifles that don't like clearning do to ensure they don't get problems associated with leaving the bore dirty for an extended period?

Sounds like you cleaned the accuracy right out of it, took longer to get the bore fouled enough for the best accuracy!!

An acquaintance NEVER clean his rifles; last year, I tried his Blaser K95 cal. 7x65R at the range and I have been astonished by the tight group I got....

To be polite--baloney

Try this.

Clean your barrel with J&B, thinned out a little with Prolix.

Use Prolix to remove all the J&B in the chanber and barrel.

Dry the barrel, and chamber, with 3 or so patches.

Then tell us what hapens.

Also on the 93 I make sure that where the barrel touches the "reciever" in the stock, it is dry and free from oil.

If I am doing a lot of shooting at the range, some times I just want to "punch" the barrel out.

So I use Prolix on a brush, and then dry the barrel and chamber out. First round has always gone right where it should.

With several different barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by amamnn:
To be polite--baloney

Who are you referring to?

quote:

Originally posted by caorach:
What do others who have rifles that don't like clearning do to ensure they don't get problems associated with leaving the bore dirty for an extended period?

Annoint the bore with KG6 moly bore prep. Then only shoot moly coated bullets.

I'm guessing bench technique. Bore condition might cause erratic groups, but it is not going to cause wandering groups. Slight inconsistent variations in cheek weld, fore end pressure and body positioning can cause significant group movement. Check the action screw torque and bedding too. Has there been any changes in your vision lately? This could lead to sight picture changes that can vary as your eyes get strained in an extended shooting session.

I can't argue with you Bobster but I do find it a little strange that I've never seen anything like this before and that it happens directly after cleaning and then stops after about 50 rounds. As you say the cleaning thing might still prove to be a diversion and it may be something I'm doing or a scope/mount problem but everything seems secure and at the minute things are stable. It is most remarkable.

Most folks over-clean their rifles.

I shot 30 rounds, ran one wet shooter's choice patch down the barrel, then one dry one then looked at the bore with a scope.

No copper, barely any carbon.

I think most of the copper (blue on the patch) is from the bronze brush.

I have also scoped a totally clean barrel, then bronze brushed it followed by a wet patch. It comes out black but it's not carbon. I bet you can take a brand new barrel, brush it and patch it out and it will be black.

I would check the user before the gun. Maybe you needed some triggertime to get consistent. With unfamiliar handguns I need up to a few hundred rounds to get a consistent POI.

A while back I was in a friends gunstore and had a borescope.

We checked every used rifle he had in the place.

The conditions of those bores was terrible...

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Most folks over-clean their rifles.

I shot 30 rounds, ran one wet shooter's choice patch down the barrel, then one dry one then looked at the bore with a scope.

No copper, barely any carbon.

I think most of the copper (blue on the patch) is from the bronze brush.

I have also scoped a totally clean barrel, then bronze brushed it followed by a wet patch. It comes out black but it's not carbon. I bet you can take a brand new barrel, brush it and patch it out and it will be black.

Not with my Kriegers---clean is clean. The Bore Scope is worth a thousand well meaning but inaccurate opinions.

I am most likely less knowledgeable than most on this subject, but I have a M700 in .338wm that will put 5 shots into a quarter at 200yrds, and once I have it sighted in I do not clean it at all, I only coat the barrel with Brake-Free for storrage and remove it with action cleanor prior to use.

I have also never experienced a difference in accuracy related to my barrel(s) being dirty or clean or a sudden accuracy decline as the barrel became increasingly fouled.

It might just be my imagination, but that my .338 shoots it best any where from shot #5 untill I deside to clean it some where after shot #40. I will add you can count on one hand with fingers to spair the No# of times I have ever shot that rifle (or any rifle I own for that matter) untill it became hot to the touch. And I am talking not to hot to touch, only quite warm.

It has been my experience that none of my rilfes has what is commonly refered to as a accuracy "sweet spot" where they shoot their best with in a spacific No# of shots. At least i have never been able to, despite my best efforts, establish this as so with any of my rifles and I own rifles made by Ruger, Remington, Savage, Browning, Mauser (M96), and Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by caorach:
It had been a while since I cleaned my rifle, ...it was usually cleaned every 20 - 40 rounds. The first few rounds out afterwards were always a bit off the mark but beyond that it was all good to go. This time however it took me 50 rounds before the rifle would settle down. ...

Sounds like the "lack of cleaning" has caused "Pits" in the Bore. You may or may not be able to see them without a BoreScope, but I'd guess that is the problem.

Once Powder Fouling and Copper Residue line a Bore, the addition of Water(vapor in the form of humidity) will get between those layers and create a small Battery. That Battery begins transfering metal from the Steel to the Copper and thus Pits are Born.

Fortunately, it is not one of my rifles!

Best of luck to you.

Unfortunately most folks do not have the luxury of a borescope-----if they did you would not see a lot of these posts. One look with a BS is worth a 1000 expert opinions..

Boss Hoss, your point about the bore scope is right on. Until you make the extremely worthwhile and expensive investment of one, you dont know whats going on in there.

I had a friend with a 17 remington that had shot zillions of rounds and was great accuracy until it finaly started missing. He went to clean it and found that the 17 cal spud on the end of his bore snake would not pass down the bore due to copper fouling!!! We scrubbed the snot out of it and took a look. It was fine underneath all the copper and now shoots well again.

I have used the JB bore bright as well as the KG polish and found that upon inspection with the bore scope a visible differance in the finish of the bore is easily seen. It is worth it to use those products and have good equipment, or pay a someone who does.

If it was my rifle / barrel, I would find someone with a bore scope & have it checked when it i dirty & when it is clean. Then I would decide to use JB - probably at least 100 strokes.

If there is clear evidence of pitting, I would fire lap the barrel with 100 grit compound on lead bullets.

Good luck

quote:

my rifle, a Blaser R93

What caliber? Which bullet?

I've never had a rifle that wouldn't "settle down" after 3-5 rounds...cleaned with Wipe-out right down to bare metal.

I had a first run Rem 700 BDL in 17 Rem that didn't have ANY rifling for 12" or more past the throat that still shot <3/4" group. It WOULD start tossing bullets all over the place after about a dozen rounds, but still only took 2 rounds to settle in after cleaning.

I've had several 22-243 and 6mm-284 barreled varminters with the cheapest Doublas barrels that would copper/carbon/etc foul in 15 rounds then I would have to soak overnight, sometimes a couple of time, in Wipe-out to clean out, UNTIL the barrel finally got smoothed up enough to slow down on the fouling. Still only took 3-5 rounds to settle in.

I've had most of the high dollar benchrest barrels...Hart, Shilen, etc that would HARDLY foul at all, and after cleaning STILL took 2-3 rounds to foul.

I've had/have at least one rifle in all the available calibers except the really big ones over 50 cal, with barrels of varying quality and I can't think of ANY one of them that took more than 5 rounds to settle down.

If this were my rifle I would STOP looking at the cleaning end and START looking for another cause...starting with the barrel crown, scope mounts, rings and scope setting, ammo, bullets, any and all mechanical connections...something definitely went wrong

All the stories aside...it is damn near impossible to ruin a barrel cleaning it with a bronze brush and good cleaning rod...even benchrest or extemely accurat target weapons. You can mess up the bore with a steel brush for sure, but NOT a bronze brush unless you use some kind of valve grinding compound on it.

If the target groups are moving around I would suspect a mechanical problem somewhere...in the barrel attachment, scope, mounts/rings or YOUR shooting, the bench, weather conditions...etc. It doesn't matter what caliber. Lots of things can go wrong with a scope and make you life miserable and sending it in to be repaired is the ONLY way you will know for sure. If you swap on another scope and the same thing happens then, at least THAT supposition is eliminated.

Cleaning as you described it wouldn't have the effect you describe. That rifle ISN'T a benchrester even thought it is a very well made and accurate shooter.

I would look for another cause.

Luck

The only time I have had a barrel take more than 5 shots to settle down after cleaning was one that was severly worn, ie several thousand rounds.

I had a Steyr SSG in 308 that started doing that after 7200 rounds.

After cleaning it would be fairly wild for the first 7 shots or so.

I would then not clean it for the next 200 rounds.

It still shot fairly good until I retired it at 10,000+ rounds.

How many rounds does your R 93 barrel have through it?

There's cleaning, and there's cleaning, then there is cleaning...I always wonder WHO or WHAT is getting cleaned.

Some cleaners only clean out the powder fouling..some do various levels of copper cleaning and some will actually clean out the carbon/moly ring just in front of the chamber...it depends on WHICH and WHAT product you're using and just how much of the party line you are willing to listen too.

I swear by Wipe-out...been using it since it's inception...it WILL clean out copper, carbon, and any other garbage in the bore...BUT...because of the "layering" effect of the depositional products it take more than one application many times.

I've cleaned the bores of military rifles you'de swear had NO rifling whatsoever...just a smoothe hole and they DIDN'T shoot sh**...some took two weeks of soak and scrub using Sweets and all the other most agressive copper cleaners intersperced with Wipe-out to finally reveal there WERE lands and grooves and get the bore clean right down to the metal. After that they would shoot as well as you would expect early miliary rifles to shoot...not all of them...cleaning doesn't always make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

10,000 rounds...WOW...most of my varminters only last two seasons and get MAYBE 3-4000 rounds before their gone and that includes at least one rechamber and maybe two recrowns for the favorite "best shooters"...and I never keep ONE rifle long enough to shoot that many through it...except maybe my 338-06, that one might have 3000 at the most, it's been with me since the mid 60's.

I don't "clean" until the accuracy starts dropping off...doesn't matter how many rounds or what caliber...just an oil patch after shooting season for the most part.

When the accuracy goes away I clean, foul, check out the target agains previous targets and if that shows up something onerous the rifle system gets checked over and any found problem gets fixed.

Anyway...hope it's something simple in Caorach's shooter.

Would like to know your application process as I tried Wipe-Out but did not get the results you did. The Bore Scope still showed considerable carbon and a little layered fouling.

I like wipeout for copper removal, but i just do not think you can get a barrel totally clean without using a brush.

Especially a barrel that has been shot a fair amount.

I did a cleaning test a while back with the use of a Hawkeye Bore scope.

J&B [I mixed in some Prolix to thin it up a little and make it a easier to use], was the fastest and most sure way of TOTALLY getting a barrel clean.

Try this on your R 93 barrel. Do four aplications of J&B, 10 strokes each, a stroke being up and back. Between the aplications, push 4 patches wet with Prolix through the bore.

Then when done, dry out the chamber and bore.

Shoot the barrel and let us know what happens.

Keep track if the first 10 shots on the target.

Be sure there is no oil between the barrel and reciever of the R 93.

I've used J&B since way back and ISSO and Flitz(great for polishing aluminum)...don't know what Prolix is, I usually use Kroil or Marvel Mystery Oil as a lub/carrier for the abrasive paste. The only way to really remove the "tiger stripes" is to use the paste and many times a good brush scrubbing helps break loose the crud even when using the "brushless" products.

I have a 12" deep x 4 foot shelf that is packed to the hilt with cleaning products...some have to be 40 years old ...I'm a sucker for new cleaning products.

You're right about the abrasive pastes...the layering aspect of carbon/copper/powder residue requires some drastic measures sometimes. I use Flitz to break in barrels also. I also switched to Patch-out and the accelerator instead of the foam...a lot less mess. I don't think carbon is a problem except maybe in the target/benchrest end as far as accuracy is concerned,.

The only way to get to the carbon ring if it is REALLY baked on or mixed with moly residue is the abrasive pastes WITH QuickSilver from Mercury or one of the other, VERY NASTY carbon removers used in the automotive/boat motor industry, but you need to disassemble the weapon otherwise that stuff will chew up wood or plastics and remove ANY trace of oil it touches.

10 strokes is good with the paste...I do a few more usually 15-20 and only enough applications to get the job done...whatever is required basically.

My shooters have really smooth barrels...either a polished barrel to begin with or through wear. Except for the smaller varmint calibers most of my shooters get less than 25 rounds a year through them

I still think there is a mechanical reason for the problem rather than a cleaning reason. I've just never came across a barrel that was so bad it required, basically, a "bore resizing by fouling"...and a Blaser is a quality shooter with a quality barrel.

I'm scratching my head...YES, definitely let us know what is going on. Eliminating one thing on the "solution" list will help get rolling on another possible solution.

Luck

Well I typed a one finger reply and it went to the internet black hole I guess. Quicksilver is great on carbon. Wipeout is good if you let it soak 10 minutes or so. I use ISSO on the throat during break in. Funny, I do not do a formal break in. A bore scope tells me what I need to do. I have a high dollar bore guide[TK Nolans barrel saver]. I do use bronze brushes with a bronze core. I mix my own cleaner as I use a lot. 8 oz of Kroil, 8 oz. of white ammonia, and finish the gallon with the old GM Top Engine Cleaner in the 15 oz container. Part#1050002. You have to really look for it as it has been discontinued. Being in the auto business I knew it was discontinued and bought up 45-50 cans.
All barrels are not equal and need different things. I have a Rock Creek 30 cal barrel that just doesn't know how to get dirty.
5 shots in under a quarter at 200yds! Maybe once in you lifetime.
Butch

butch says,

quote:

Part#1050002. You have to really look for it as it has been discontinued.

So what have they come up with to replace TEC? Gotta be something they use...

I used to use Mercury Quicksilver Engine Cleaner to clean my rifle barrels. I bought it at the Mercury boat motor dealership.

The first time I tried some Shooters choice I noticed they smelled a lot alike.

When Quicksilver became unavialable I kept using the Shooters Choice Bore cleaner.

When I do not want to use J&B Bore paste I use Shooters Choice with their Copper Remover, or Prolix and Wipeout.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Would like to know your application process as I tried Wipe-Out but did not get the results you did. The Bore Scope still showed considerable carbon and a little layered fouling.

I think the foam cleaners work but I just can't believe they get EVERYthing out. Not like brushing.

I have read time and time again about over cleaning. I simply don't care. My rifles shoot to my satisfaction and I clean the ever livin piss out of them...probably down to bare metal each and every time!. That's just the way I roll. And I've never had any problems with it.

Caoroch, I've seen issues similar to your in the past.

It's very common for a rifle to take more rounds to settle down after cleaning as the throat is shot out. If this barrel has a high round count, it could be time for a new one.

I've also seen what Foobar describes. A gun that won't shoot with a "clean" barrel, but the barrel is really no where near clean. This is often the case with some using a powder solvent, but not a true copper solvent (like barnes cr-10). I use an Outers foul out remover. I've saved more then one barrel with this device, truely cleaning it all the way down to bare metal, and restoring accuracy. If the accuracy doesn't recover after a I'm done with it on the Foul Out, and this will sometimes take a week, it's because the throat is done, and it time to bring the barrel in a turn and cut a new throat.

With your issue however, keep in mind you have a detachable barrel. This is and additional variable that many of us in this thread may not have much experience with.

Thank you for all the replies, I've been following the thread and also doing some further experiments.

The rifle has probably 1500 - 2000 rounds through it so hardly run in for a Blaser. Up until now it has been cleaned after each shooting session, usually with Butches Bore Shine and a brass brush plus lots of patches. My normal experience is that it would throw one or two rounds a bit wild after cleaning and then settle down.

Despite saying that I'd never clean it again that is against my nature! I also decided that it was possible that I was a factor in the moving groups plus I tightened up the QD scope mounts a little bit just in case things were moving about.

I shot some groups after my first posting and I then cleaned the rifle a little bit, a few passes with the brass brush and a few applications of Butches but this wasn't a big clean to the point where I could get no more dirt out of it. I suspect that many people who only ever clean with patches and some solvent and who don't put a brass brush down the barrel have no idea of the amount of junk lurking in there.

Anyhow, here is the first target shot after the "light" cleaning, the shots are numbered and as you can see are a little wild:



This is the 2nd target, shots 7,8 and 9 were aimed for the central orange diamond and in theory the rifle is zeroed 2 inches high so the group is OK but the POI is a bit off. The other group on this target was aimed at the bottom left diamond and I am fairly confident that it was shooter error that left it so large though the average POI would have been similar to the other group on this target:



The target below is 7 shots and these would have been approx 21 shots after the target above. As an experiment I also took the scope off and put it back on after the 3rd shot in this group. As you can see this is a satisfactory group



So, on balance I suspect that it may be that I'm up against a number of factors namely me, the scope mounts perhaps being a bit slack and the "cleaning factor."

Hopefully I will carry out some more experiments when time allows and I will post if there are any other revelations but I do think that cleaning has some impact upon where I'm hitting the target but it is not the only factor at play here.

Wind and atmospheric conditions could account for every shot except #4. Possibly that was shooter error or a bad bullet. Try seating your bullet out closer to the lands and see if that helps. There's bound to be some throat erosion with 1500 rds. or so. Is this rifle a 7x57 or .308?

Now I notice that these targets are fired with two different loads. In order to figure anything out we have to shoot the same load under the same conditions.

Have you TOTALLY cleaned the barrel with J&B?

Your first few erating groups could be caused by having some copper and carbon fouling in parts of the barrel even after you have cleaned it.

Try 4 good applications of J&B.

If that does not work then you barrel might be damaged or worn out.

That is what my SSG started doing after @ 7200 rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Have you TOTALLY cleaned the barrel with J&B?

No J&B here in the boglands of Ireland I'm afraid so make the best of what I've got which is Butches and KG12. I think it was the KG12 that started this problem as it got all the copper out :-)

I don't think the barrel is worn as I've never heard of anyone wear out a 308W Blaser barrel and I'm at less than 2000 rounds for this barrel. It's hardly run in yet.

I might get a chance to go to the range on Monday evening in which case I will clean it before I head out just to see how it performs. I know it is currently shooting good groups but I also hate leaving the bore dirty though the Blasers get a good reputation for rust resistance.

If there is lots of powder residue (carbon) or moly buildup, I start out with Remington 40X bore cleaner, tight-fitting bronze brushes (eg 6.5 in a 6mm, or 6mm in a .224, etc) on a Dewey teflon rod and with a bore guide. The first several times the patches come out looking like you cleaned out a coal stove. After a few cycles of this, I do the same thing with Butch's Bore Shine until the patches are noticeably less black and the bore feels "slick" to a dry patch. I suspect that there will always be some black just from taking tiny amounts of metal off the bore, so I've learned not to go crazy with trying to clean until I get a perfectly white patch. I've tried the foaming type cleaners and am not too impressed, possibly falling into the category of DDS bore cleaners. (DDS is a term coined by my varmint hunting co-hort, GHD). When it's clean enough to shoot ragged-hole !00 yd groups, it's CLEAN!

If there's no JB in Ireland, you may want to try this: In another thread, HC mentioned that one of the Hodgdons used Hoppe's mixed with Bon Ami to make a slightly abrasive bore cleaner. This was back before there was so many products on the market.
Since I have plenty of JB, I haven't thought to try it but I seriously think it would work.