Please help me out here!
I have a factory Win.M70 in 7mmRemMag with about 600 rounds through it. It shoots 1/2'' at 100 yards, so NO complaints here.
Trouble is, my patches NEVER come out clean. I used Shooters Choice Copper Solvent, and always a blue patch. I use Montana Copper Cream, and they come out blackish, even after I follow it up with Hoppe's, thinking that maybe it's still some powder residue left. I then scrubbed the hell out of it with JB's, and still if I put another copper solvent patch through it, it won't be clean! If I look in the muzzle-end with a mag-light, the lands look copper-ish color, and the grooves a black color.
What the hell is going on here? I did scrub about 100 times with the JB paste. Any opinions??

If it is routinely shooting 1/2" groups, I'd give it a reasonable cleaning and call it good! That is an accurate barrel, why run the risk of aggressive cleaning result in wear and subsequent decrease in accuracy?

I got some barrels that are shiny-bright and clean easy, but seldom if ever shoot under 1 inch.

You aren't graded down for having a trace of copper fouling in the grooves, it's how it shoots that counts.

This is an old trick I was told about a lot of years ago and may not tellyou anything but then again it might, run a piece of fishing line through the bore from muzzle to breach attach a peice of loose cotton to the line (small enough to pass the bore with out a lot of drag) pull the cotton ball through and then get a really good light and see if the cotton left traces behind, if so you may have a rough rifleing which I had a bit of experiance with and I posted my solution on this subject.

Look at difficulty getting clean patches, second posting, I am not saying that this will cure your problem but the process did not hurt the HOWA .270 Vanguard. You Deside.

You both make good points, thanks, and Matt you're right....why even think about it with 1/2 groups. I just wonder why the hell the barrel interior is so black colored after 600 rounds blasting down the bore?

I know this isn't worth asking, but what kind of cleaning jag are you using? could some color be coming from the metal jag?

I have a 1953 m70 featherweught 308 I got a couple years ago , alittle neglected siiting in some ones closet I suppose.
Cleaned the hell out of the bore and still get dirty patches because the bore was a little frosted with rust so the metal is a little pores and holds carbon foul.

Shoots real good though

Rusty, I use the brass jag that comes with the dewey rod. What color should the lands and grooves be?? Mine are black.

Wolfgar - If the patches are not coming out green/blue with copper solvents, then you do not have copper fouling. Remember that JB will always come out black regardless of how clean the bore.

Soak your bore with Hoppe’s overnight and then push a few clean patches through. Do not scrub back-and-forth, just one push down the bore. You should be able to feel the difference between a clean bore and a fouled bore when pushing a patch. If the patches come out very black, do another soak. If there is only a light amount of black, don’t worry about it.

If you really want to get rid of powder fouling, plug the muzzle and fill the bore with Hoppe’s for 24 hours. Guaranteed to remove all powder fouling.

If you want to perform a visual bore inspection of the muzzle end, push a patch to within 2 to 3 inches from the muzzle then shine your light. The white will provide a better reflection so that you can inspect the bore.

Zero, do you think that my black patches were from left over JB's? They did come out better after the Hoppe's. I did scrub the hell out of it with the JB's.
What color SHOULD the inside of my barrel be, it is black, after 600 7mm rounds

Stick a q-tip down about an inch into the muzzel of the barrel and then shine the mag light into it. The white qtip will reflect the light and make it very easy to see what color your barrel really is. It should be very shiny, not black.

Wolfgar - JB always turns black. You may have mistaken this for fouling. Even the most aggressive powder fouling is generally easy to remove with lots of soaking and a little scrubbing. Sounds like you have been doing lots of scrubbing. I only resort to JB with seriously fouled bores or for cleaning moly fouling.

I would not worry about the black you are seeing. Sounds like you have a very accurate rifle. Don’t kill the bore with over cleaning. Shoot and clean without any worries.

Wolfgar,

I've found that after using JB's, it takes SEVERAL patches of solvent to completely remove all traces of the black residue left by the JB's. Make sure you clean out the chamber as well, as you may have been pushing small amounts of leftover JB's into the bore, turning black and thereby negating attempts to remove the black residue.

In any case, shouldn't affect accuracy at all...

I decided to reload my grandad's .243 that I used to deer hunt with as a kid a few months ago. We never cleaned the bore (never knew any better), and in all honesty I thought I was going to have to rebarrel it as the bore looked horrible.

A few patches of JB's cleaned it up nicely. Shoots 3/4 inch 5 shot groups now.

Jon

Wolfgar, I noticed you said you used the brass jag that comes with your kit, I did the same thing as you but here's the kicker, as long as you use the brass jag you will continue to see blue. I was told the copper solvents will also work on the brass and hench drive you up the wall! try to find a nylon type of jag for removing the copper solvent and see what you come up with, it seemed to have worked for me but I would not have thought there to be enough copper in the brass to hae changed the color. Just a thought for you to try. Later,

Kirk

Thanks Kirk, I'll give it a try. I just ordered a bottle of Montana's 50BMG, which I hear is very powerful stuff. I'll keep you all posted.
Now if I can only figure out why after 600 7mm rounds, the bore of my rifle is black insted of shiney metal color...

Are you using a brass bore brush? If so your bore cleaner will have a reaction to the brass brush.
When I clean my guns I first run two wet patches then allow that to set for about 15 minutes then I use a nylon brush to schrub the bore and then a couple of more wet patches then dry patch. I run a oil patch if this is the last cleaning of the day.
I use shooters choice and Kroil half and half as a bore cleaner.
my 2 cents

check with shilen barrels they say dont over do it. do you want to show off your group or your clean barrel

I agree with those who say don't worry about it. If the rifle is shooting 1/2 inch groups leave it alone. As long as it ain't brown from rust don't fret it.

Have you tried using WipeOut? I will bet that one hour of WipeOut in the bore will bring out the bare metal.

Never thought to mention Wipe Out. I use it from time to time. Let it set overnight and see how clean it makes the bore.

Definitely try Wipe Out overnight and then a good old fashioned gun oil like Rem Oil. Should be nice and shiney. Just remember to use a nylon brush with the wipe out as it will dissolve brass.

quote:

Have you tried using WipeOut? I will bet that one hour of WipeOut in the bore will bring out the bare metal.

I'll say to try this too. I have a rifle that although shoots ok I never get all the copper out. Tried foam cleaner this weekend for the first time and holly crap. 3 patches later and not a trace. I understand where your comming from. Even though it shoots good it still bugs ya to see that copper in there.

Wipeout should be outlawed.....its' just to darn ez to use and gets the job done too......life just shouldn't be this easy!!!

Years ago I decided to clean two rifles to bare metal, I cleaned them both until I could run a clean brush through with solvent and get no coloring at all to the patch.

I ended up cleaning both of those rifles, every day for two weeks. When I finished they were squeaky clean, right up until I fired the first shot down the bore.
What I learned was that the surface of the metal is porus and those pores will release deposits each day as the metal normally heats and cools with the ambient temperature.

It was a good excersize but I have never done it since, too much work, and for what?

The Army always made us clean the rifles for three days straight after a range day. I suspect it was for the same reason, cause it will come out dirty for several days after a good cleaning.
Just my experience.
Joe

Wolfgar,

I empathise completely. I can clean my bores for weeks. No kidding. Hoppes No. 9 Copper Solvent states specifically to leave overnight. It works, but sometimes I think my barrels are made out of copper, and I can clean till they're limp.

I put 4 shots through my short mag the other day. I'm still cleaning. Soon, I'll subscribe to the "Don't clean till accuracy gets affected" method because I'm just getting aggrivated as heck. I feel like I'm spinning my wheels.

I've read about WipeOut and the Outers Foam on this board. I'm going to give those a try, then just screw it and leave em till they plug up and explode (note sarcasm from frustration)

Thanks for letting me vent

EMC2

I inherited a pre-64 Mod 70 264 win mag that I was determined to get clean. My late Uncle used it and did not believe in cleaning. This was 2 years ago and I used all kinds of solvents and ran patch after brush and brush after patch for days.

Then along came Wipeout and after 2 overnight treatments the patches came out pure white.

About that time I had a lighweight Sauer that I would clean vigorously and could still see the copper streaks at the muzzle. Same thing, 2 treatments of wipeout and the copper was gone.

Both rifles now will clean with one overnight treatment with Wipeout after 20 rounds or so.

Hey Wolfgar

Dont drive yourself nuts in search of a true clean barrel. Decopper possibly every 20-100 rds ie when grouping start to go screwy. Otherwise after shooting swab the barrel with Hoppes No9 powder solvent until the patches are more or less clean approx 3 or 4. Put a wet patch through and put the gun away leaving the H9 in the barrel. Next time you take the gun out re swab with H9 and then dry patch it. Do this every time and get back to enjoying you shooting.
There is no advantage in removing the conditioning fowling every time you go shooting and you could end up damaging the barrel.

Regards

Mark

Wolfgar I have a little Toyota it gives me 37 MPG in town and 47+ on the freeway. The oil gets dirty after 3000 miles. I've stopped worrying about it. The car has 147,000 miles on it. Doesn't burn any oil still delivers 37 and 47. Some things just are what they are.

Most guys would love to have a rifle that would consistantly shoot .5 in a game rifle.